[Monstrous4Banger]

Of course the MR2 would win with the same driver. Of course your comparing a boosted mr2 to a NA 968 tho. Add boost to the 968, or

tune on a 951, and Id say it would be a more even steven comparison. Bottom line though, is the mr2 isnt a Porsche.<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[craigawoodman]

TO me it depends on what the track looks like and how laggy the MR2 is. If it is a twisty track, the 968 will win. Power only becomes an issue if you have really long straights where you can use it. Anywhere that there are curves and changes of camber, balance and stability are what you are looking for.



THe 968 has a low centre of gravity and can be corner weighted to exactly 50:50. Not many cars can achieve this. It is also probably more predictable at the limit than an MR2, which being a mid engined car will most likely not be very progressive when it surpasses the limits of adhesion.



Have a good look at the set-up of the front tyres and how much camber and castor you have. Whilst running big negative camber should be avoided, if you are not getting the full face of the front tyres to make contact, you are giving up time. There is a large amount of time to be gained simply through front suspension set-up.



As per Flash's comment - the car also has to be driven fairly agressively. It is easy to flow on the throttle between corners and balance on the throttle.



THe other thing with a N/A version, is you do not need a lot of throttle modulation, so once you have the car pointing where you want to go, you can burry your foot. Big HP engines do not allow this (particularly laggy big hp engines), so you actually gain some time/distance simply from being able to get back onto the throttle earlier.



There is not much out there that can hold corner speed like a well set-up 968.



If I can be quicker than new GT3's around Lakeside (by around 1 second plus), it goes to prove that power is not everything.

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[Cloud9...68]

Craig,



You are my inspiration; your achievements with your 968 prove what these cars are capable of, and your explanations as to how this is possible make perfect sense.



My car is currently in pieces; I'm installing spherical/solid rear bushings as I type this, so I know I have a lot of set-up and fine-tuning work ahead of me, and that my car will be totally transformed from the slow, mushy beast it is today. I can't wait.

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[craigawoodman]

Cloud,



THe one thing a 968 can do that a 911 cannot is brake when cornering. You can trail brake and even brake right up to the apex if you can modulate your braking when you turn in to increase front grip, or use the slow in fast out approach as you can pick up the throttle prior to the apex and drive the car out on balance. A 911 cannot do this, you have to brake in a straight line and try to accelerate in a straight line. The 968 is also good in that you don't have to learn a completely different driving style to a "normal" road car.



You will also make up a lot of time if you have bigger brakes. Remember, you will only have 240hp in engine, but can probably achieve 1,000hp with your brakes. This allows you to carry a higher speed for longer by braking later.



With the balance of the 968, you can also use kerbs better than most other cars to shorten the track where it makes sense.



Craig

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[Cloud9...68]

Yes, I've noticed how well the 968 takes to trail braking. The DE instructors I had all taught the mantra of "brake in a straight line, release the brakes, turn, apex, accelerate out the turn...) but I found this method to be too "choppy," and I found it difficult to not over-brake with this method, losing all the precious momentum this car needs so badly. So I quickly "rebelled" and started combining the braking and turning operations. I find this keeps the car much better balanced throughout the turn. I like to pretend the track is icy, or in some other sort of traction-compromised condition, knowing that the fastest way around a track like this is by being as smooth as humanly possible. I've never driven any other car but the 968 on a track, so I don't have anything to compare to, but the attributes you point out do sound like they make the 968 a potentially very capable track car. I can't wait to find out how much, but first I have to wrestle the front bushings off my A-arms so I can install the monoballs. And then go on to the 800 other things I need to finish on the car...

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[Cloud9...68]

Craig,



Reading through your latest posts on your ordeal with the supercharger prompts me to ask the question of how "streetable" is you car still. I know you still have the AC, and your spring rates aren't the highest I've seen on a 968 racer. How much do you still drive it on the street? I'm curious because I'm in a similar situation in that logistically, I can't really turn it into a full-blown race car, because I don't have a way of transporting it to the track. Thanks.

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[craigawoodman]

Cloud,



I will be able to tell you once I get the car back. Prior to installing the upgraded suspension mounting hardware (Racers Edge) it was still good on the road (the difference between track/R-spec tyres and road tyres was noticable). THe road tyres with a softer sidewall (although also 18's and same sizes as the track tyres) definately improve its road comfort. I am running front camber plates which take a lot of give out of the front (but I run helper springs on the front). My biggest issue would be bump/rebound control. I was tossing up whether to go for the KW coil-overs or the Bilsteins that I went with. I believe that the KW's have better valving to cope with bigger bumps, but beyond that - it is fine on the open road - the faster the better it handled. The rear does not have helper springs, but this would also help with its road manners when dealing with large bumps.



The issue I have is the front suspension set-up. I am running a large amount of negative camber and castor for the 18' I am running. THis has been trial and error as I used to only wear half of the tread face of the working side of the tyre. This now gives good grip on the track, but would cause a road tyre to wear prematurely as it would be running on the inside edge. Given it spends most of its time on the track - it has a track oriented set-up. Getting the front end set-up right really helped dial out understeer. I am running 235/40R18's on the front.



Makes you wonder - my road car runs 275/45R20's and these are a relatively "comfort" tyre (and on a 4x4). So modern tyre technology also helps. It is interesting that when looking for aftermarket rims - it is now getting difficult to get 18" rims - with 19's and 20's now becoming normal. So if you run modern tyres, it should not be too much of an issue. I had to bring back two 16" tyres for a fellow club member from Perth (West Coast) to the East Coast as they were not available over here. Not sure where this will drive us to ensure we can keep up with the latest tyre technology. I can remember when 17" tyres were cutting edge and 15" was a performance tyre. Go figure.



Would also be interested to hear what sway bars you run. Mine are bigger than M030 sway bars, so this also significantly tightens up the car, which for a road car would be better with M030's.

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[Cloud9...68]

Craig,



Thanks for the insights. I wouldn't think the spherical bushings and such would degrade the ride too dramatically, at least from what I've read from other people. I think ride comfort has more to do with spring rates, the synergy between the springs and shocks, and the tire selection. But I'm changing everything at once, so I won't be able to comment on the incremental impact of the individual pieces. I have M030 sway bars, to answer your question.



By the way, I think I've figured out the secret to why your car is so fast on the track - being a right-hand drive car, your battery is mounted in the back, giving you superior weight distribution! Yeah, that must be it .



Actually, I am inquiring about moving mine to the back as well, as it is SO much easier to take weight out of the back of the car than the front, and I am concerned about altering the great balance of the car.

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[flash]

i moved mine to the back - i made a saddle and supported it in the right rear, and ran 4200 strand 0 gauge cable front to rear

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[Lim Yong]

Like to do this some day, after all the other issues are taken care of...Flash, why the right rear?

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[flash]

because i'm in the left front - cable routing is easier too - i am using the factory ground point in the left rear though - also, being a cab the mounting points for the weight were perfect for mounting the saddle

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[craigawoodman]

And here I was thinking it was because the steering wheel is on the right side of the car!



The battery in a RHD car is in the LH (passenger side for us) rear side well. Not sure about putting one in the RH side of a LH drive car.



The added mass of the driver in my case might also help with traction, but probably not with acceleration or braking. Taking weight out of the car is easy, taking weight out of the driver should be easy but is not.

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[flash]

lol - correct - rhd cars had it on the left - i was sort of following the lead on that and cross-loading the car



i hear you on driver weight - a constant battle indeed

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[Lim Yong]

LOL.....The things we try to do to lighten / balance our cars.

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[benspeeder]

The MR2 would crush the 968 in that scenario.



HP to weight is just too dominant and the MR2 is a good handler.



I think the 968 is such a well rounded car, it does so many things well the outcome is it performs well at many different tracks and that makes the drivers look good.





This car is best at very high speed. The last point - know the track!

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[savvas968]

It should be also noted that the 968 has almost 50/50 weight distribution FR to RR

and almost 50/50 wieght distribution from Left to right rear wheels and the same for the

front wheels also,depending how heavy the driver is.

A corner weight balance confirms this with a std manual car (not CS) tipping the scales

at 1350 kg/2975lbs. this distributed almost equally to all 4 wheels.

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[RS Barn]

I've been lucky enought to be a PCA instructor for 10 years and experience not only 944s,951s, 968's and various 911's and bmws and Audis-ok a few Ferarri's' to0. It's interesting to be in passenger seat as well a driving stock,de and full race 968's. I get to see car vs driver comparison.

What is a real bonus on 968 is the various ways you can drive 968 fast. Even though the 968 has a great torque curve and brakes, I tend to teach a pretty standard brake straight and get back on throttle early, real early technique. I tend to give up late braking and trail braking for exit speed. Most cars 968 will encounter have more hp and pretty equal brakes so why slow car too much into corner and then have them catch you on exit.

968's aren't momentum cars at 3000lbs.

I have lots of advanced techniques when drivers accomplish exit speed problem.

Proper suspension balance for each level of driver is required though.

Watch Pablo's NJMP video in my Firehawk again. You'll notice exit speed which makes Caymans and GT3's look slow. My FH made 270 engine hp at the time

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[RS Barn]

I didn't see last response in new posts

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[Torbjorn968]

Where can I find the Firehawkk video.



//TL

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[RS Barn]

TL,

Look at jan 21,2010

Firehawk on Track by Pablo

Notice exit speed

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