[saxman]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the going rate is for a set of used tail lights? I'm not one to leave lighting well enough alone.

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[flash]

last time i bought new ones they were pretty cheap at only about 150 each at performance products

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[Niner]

I've seen them from German Auto Dismantlers for $80 a piece used.

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[PorscheDude]

Porsche 968 tail light covers, new old stock



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...rksid=p3907.m32

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[saxman]

noticed those ones on ebay... seller is actually the PO of kodomokid's 968.



Didn't have any idea where they sat.

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[Anchorman]

What's the idea, Saxman? Just like I had a headlight, I also have a taillight. I've been on the verge of purchasing some LED bulbs to see if they improve the light performance, but I'm guessing you're thinking of something more.

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[saxman]

[quote name='Anchorman' post='41755' date='Sep 26 2007, 06:30 PM']What's the idea, Saxman? Just like I had a headlight, I also have a taillight. I've been on the verge of purchasing some LED bulbs to see if they improve the light performance, but I'm guessing you're thinking of something more.[/quote]





the idea would be to basically open up the lights and install several circuit boards with leds on them. This way I can control the appearance to exactly what I want, have the increased safety that led lights offer, and update the rear of the car.



Something along these lines...









Those LED bulbs leave A LOT to be desired... my opinion of them is almost as bad as drop in HID kits, and as such, I'd like to address the issue properly. It's a much simpler project than the headlights anyway.





The headlights are first on the cutting black though... this is just a thought for something in the future.

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[Anchorman]

You're tempting me! My first idea, and the reason I purchased the spare taillight, was to try something like you're describing. However, I have no experience, and the "sealed" light stopped me. Get the headlight to a conclusion (one way or the other), and then turn to the rear end. I'm with you. My reason is simple - I want the rear LEDs not for the update, but because I'm convinced that the fraction of a second faster lighting is worthwhile.



BTW - one additional headlight upgrade that you might not be aware of relates to the headlight cables. If you're interested in knowing more, let me know. I have the "stuff", but I haven't done the install yet.

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[saxman]

The fraction of a second difference, at highway speeds, makes a difference of something on the order of 90 feet if I recall correctly. That's not a small difference.



As for the headlight cables, part of this process is switching to a completely independent power supply for the headlights. The stock headlight wiring is used for nothing more than to trigger the relay that will send power to the headlights.

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[Anchorman]

At 70 mph, a car is covering nearly 103 feet in one second. So, the fraction of a second (I seem to recall that the difference between LED and standard bulbs is 1/5 of a second) is worth about 20 feet. Since that's more than enough to make a difference between just missing my rear bumper and crushing my car into oblivion (not to say what might happen to me in the driver's seat), I'm looking to save that 1/5 of a second.



The cable set I have basically does as you're suggesting - relays. However, this set is, to say the least, industrial strength. I'll post a photo or two - it might give you some added ideas. IIRC, this cable set also has its power pickup directly at the alternator, further reducing voltage drop. For those that know, it's the Ice Shark headlight cable set.

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[flash]

it's the alternator cable and main battery cables and connections that make the biggest difference - they are below what is needed to carry the 105 amps the alternator puts out - i was very suprised to see the very small alternator cable, and have plans to change that very soon - i picked up a half volt at the battery, just by getting rid of the crappy lead connectors at the battery and replacing them with gold



the wiring to the headlights is fine - they aren't carrying that much current - i doubt you will notice a difference there by themselves



whle i am not immediately inclined to fix something that isn't broken, the logic of a safer brake light makes a lot of sense (already been rear ended once) - i might consider the LED rears, if somebody can show me empirical data regarding the faster lighting, and also that there is no luminosity loss or wavelength change



carry on

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[Anchorman]

If you haven't seen the ever-increasing evidence of the faster lighting of the LED rears, I'm surprised. Driving behind many cars, you can see that the LED third brake light comes on before the incandescent regular brake lights. It's remarkable (to me) to see how slow the regular bulbs light compared to the LEDs.



All of my main power cables have been replaced with the Ice Shark setup. Someday I'll get around to installing the headlight cable set.

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[flash]

nope - never noticed - but then, i don't spend a lot of time looking at brake lights - i'm looking well past the car in front of me, so it's lights are more of a subliminal thing - even then, i'm too old to focus on the 3rd light, and rarely even notice it when i am looking at brake lights



i will go out and time it on both cars i have with led 3rds though - since i can operate a stopwatch faster than 1/10 of a second, and can actually slow down to 1/5, seeing a difference of 1/5 should be easy



as i said, i'm all for whatever i can do to prevent some knothead from banging into the rear of my car, as long as it is at least as bright and as full of a light - LEDs tend to be spottier and more focused, and that would be bad - the LED conversions i've seen for the 3rd light on this car, are not as good as the incandescent setup for immediate recognition and reflex triggering, so i'm waiting to see what this ends up being - it may well take lens modification or a new lens design to properly spread the light to a large solid bar, as opposed to a few dots

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[saxman]

The response time is noticably quicker... there have been many studies proving the safety gains from LED tail lights. I'll look and see if I can find them or not.





Bright and full of light is the whole idea here. You get a better distribution of light, and better control over the light output.



Some food for though... a standard 1157 tail light bulb has an output of 38 lumens on low light, and about 400 lumens on high output(which is then passed through the lens at weird angles, and off a not all that efficient reflector, etc... a lot of output is lost going out of the light).



The led's that would be used produce on the order of 20-30 lumens each... and we're talking about large arrays of them. That 400 lumen figure is very easy to quickly surpass, and is done in a much more efficient delivery system.













as for headlight cables... changes get made when installing hid's as the ballasts have a huge current draw when you first turn them on. It's VERY common to burn out stock wiring and headlight switches if the stock wiring is used. Also, insufficient current can cause damage to the ballasts, and will prevent them from operation properly.

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[Anchorman]

Saxman, you should adopt "Lightman" as your handle. The expertise is welcome, thanks.

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[94SilverCab]

I wish you had an unmolested set of Ice Shark Cables as well...that would be my next upgrade...an awesome 968 owner (RIP)



Jay

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[saxman]

[quote name='Anchorman' post='41781' date='Sep 27 2007, 02:46 PM']Saxman, you should adopt "Lightman" as your handle. The expertise is welcome, thanks.[/quote]



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> probably should... if you come to my apartment, you'll see headlight parts laying around everywhere.



Hell, this is one shelf in my linen closet:













I really need to get the del sol headlights I'm working on finished, so I can focus all my attention on this.





they're getting there

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[flash]

i am only referring to the LED setups i've seen so far on the 3rd light on this car - not good - very much spottier and less even - they all used a single LED in place of each bulb, and the result was a pin point light



if the large lights could be made to be full and even, like they are now, then it would be fine - not sure how that would be accomplished, but an array in there would probably do it - sounds like a project for you



when i was referring to the headlight wiring being sufficient, it was with the stock lights in mind - they don't draw that much current - the guage wire they used for them is fine - i have no idea what the current requirements are for the HIDs - care to fill us in on how many amps of draw? - i could easily determine the correct guage wire from that



anyway - have at it - if it works, i'll be in for a set - i like the idea

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[saxman]

the current draw depends a lot on which ballasts are used, is it a hot or cold start up, etc...





worst case scenario being one of the german ballasts(for some reason theirs seem to take a good bit more current) on cold start up, is around a 30 amp spike on cold start up, per ballast.



Some of the japanese ballasts seem to spike to closer to 15 amps.

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[flash]

is that a spike over static draw, or a total current draw?



at 30 amps, if it's total, then the wire guage should be 8ga



if it's spike over static, then it should be 6ga



alternator wire should be 4ga (it's not)

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