[Cloud9...68]

I'm wondering if any of the experienced racers out there could help me with my question. I live 18 miles from a driving academy, which is just what it sounds like - it's a track owned by a retired racer which teaches people how to become race drivers, through a graduated series of courses, each one teaching a different set of skills in a progressive manner. I've taken the beginning course, passed the test, and am ready for the intermediate course, but have been working on some serious upgrades to my car first. Once I finish the course, I will most likely start racing the car, but that's pretty far down the road (but who knows - depend how hard the bug bites).



High on the list is switching to R compound tires, most likely on 18" wheels. But here's my dilemma: I live 18 miles from the track, and don't have a trailer, nor do I have space for one, so I will for the time being have to keep my car at least streetable enough to drive it to and from the track. So, I seem to be faced with the choice of buying a set of track wheels/tires that I would take with me to the track, and change them out at the track, or just drive on the R-compounds on the street.



I'm concerned about option 1, because it doesn't seem like a good idea to frequently (as in potentially several times a week) take the wheels on and off. It wouldn't be so bad if my track sessions would be all-weekend affairs, but I plan to go to the track for 20-40 minute sessions 1-3 times a week.



So, if option 2 is the best choice, are there any tires you guys would recommend that are much stickier than standard street "ultra-high performance" tires (I'm running 17" Sumitomo HTRZIII's), but that can still be driven on the street legally, safely, and that won't wear out at a ridiculous rate if I take it easy until I get to the track?



If it helps, my suspension set-up will consist of replacing all the rubber bushings and mountings with sphericals and solid units, front camber plates, upper strut brace, lower chassis brace, hopefully the D1R roll bar/chassis brace, M030 sway bars, Moton Clubsport dual-adjustable shocks and struts, torsion bar deletion, and a Guard torque-biasing differential. I haven't decided on the spring rates, because they depend to a large extent on the types of wheels and tires I end up going with.



Thanks in advance for the help.

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[flash]

i'd run the piss out of the sumis until they are shot and then decide based on how they feel on the track - if they just aren't working, then go for a better tire like the ADVAN AD08 - if they are working well enough for you to have productive sessions, then stick with them until they don't



my philosophy on tires is that the rest of the setup is far more important than the tires, and you will improve your driving a lot more in other areas than tires will improve your times - yes, they can really help, but there are a lot of other larger factors involved that can be sorted out first without ripping through expensive tires - even getting the shock and alignment settings can run through a set - no point in doing that on expensive ones

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[bob blackwell]

Use your Sumitomo tires until you get good enough to take full advantage of the R compound tires. I have driven to an event about 30 miles away on my 18 inch wheels with the Hoosier R compound tires for autocross events with no problems so far..............it only takes one nail through the sidewall to ruin a perfectly good tire tho' so it is risky. Good luck and enjoy the driving school, that is the best money you can spend to get faster! Bob Blackwell.

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for the replies. I've driven on the track for quite awhile now on street tires, and feel like I'm ready to move on to something stickier (and, I realize, less forgiving), so I'm not really interested in continuing to use the Sumi's on the track. It's not that they're "not working," it's just that my lap times have stagnated (and the retired professional driver who owns the track couldn't lap more that a fraction faster than I could), so I'm looking to move beyond street tires. It's probably long overdue, actually. Basically, I'm looking at an R-Compound tire. But since I still need to drive the car to some extent on the street, I guess the best compromise would be an R-compound tire with the highest wear rating in the category.

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[Eric_K]

I'd get a set of Toyo RA-1 and run them full tread. They should get you to the track and back fine and last for a good while at the track.



Eric

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[pure&simple]

Not sure option 1 is really an option - with yourself and 4 wheels/tires in the car, you won't be able to fit much else. Might be ok for a single-day event, though. I've thought about a little track-day trailer with room for a set of wheels and tools, but am not to that point yet.



As for option 2, a couple of guys I know drive to/from the track on their Toyo R888s - say they wear like iron, but as Bob said that's risky since you'd probably miss a substantial amount of track time if you ran over something.



Not only do track tires offer more grip, but they also handle heat better than street tires. I only do events in Spring and Fall but still find my street tires usually start to lose grip due to heat in the second half of a run session.

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[Cloud9...68]

Great inputs, thanks. Yeah, Option 1 is pretty much a non-option, because of the nature of the driving academy I'm going to be going to the most. Their program consists of taking a class, and then going back for a large number of 20-minute sessions to drive home what you've learned. The owner's opinion is that this allows you to process the information between sessions, as opposed to trying to cram everything in over a single weekend. The approach worked extremely well for me, as I went from brutally slow (but consistent) to being able to keep up with much faster cars over the course of about a dozen sessions. But it would be a nightmare to have to change wheels on and off before and after each of these short sessions. If only I could afford to rent one of the garages at the track!



I drive the car so little on the street that I think a good set of R compound tires should work for me. I'll follow up on the recommendations you guys have given.

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[pmason]

I like Nitto NT01's drive them on the street no problem. Great wear on the track also.

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

Hankook 221's are the go if you don't use your car as a DD. These are road legal and super soft. Don't expect to get much mileage out of them though. You would probably get about 200 miles max out of them on the track if driven in anger. If the 10% is only getting to the track and you are more focussed on times then you want a soft tire such as the 221. If absolute time isn't important and you are after a better handling tire only, then Toyo R888s, Dunlop DZ03Gs, Yoki A048 are probably the go, as these re more of a tarmac rally tire (more durable) than the 221s or Yoki A050s

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[flash]

sounds like somebody needs a trailer and tow vehicle



seriously though - if it's only training, i would not bother with track tires until you had really sorted out the car and the loose nut behind the wheel - once you are perfectly smooth and the car is behaving the way you want, then switch tires, figure out how to tow it, or how to store it at the track, and quit screwing around with halfway - you're only going to make yourself crazy otherwise - i just went through this myself



street tires will be much easier to sort the car out with, as you will be much more easily able to tell what is what in the setup and not masked by the tire - also, race tires are far less capable of consistency over varying conditions, and i would not want to contaminate them with stuff that is on the street either - they are designed for race tracks not street exposure



you're right though about the on and off thing though - i wouldn't want to be changing studs either, and three times a week for who knows how long would mean a set of studs (and of course new steel nuts)

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[Cloud9...68]

lol - yes a trailer and a tow vehicle would definitely be the ticket, but with four other cars in the family, all of which get used regularly, I'd need one of those stacked garages they have in Europe.



My immediate goal is training, but I really want to do it in a vehicle I'm not going to quickly "outgrow", as has been the case with my car in its current configuration. Since I'm going to be stuck in dual-purpose mode for the foreseeable future, it sounds like I need a tire that's either the tallest midget or the shortest giant - in other words, either the most track-capable street tire, or the most streetable track tire. Thanks for all the suggestions - I'll research them all.

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[flash]

tires won't make up for bad setup or unbalanced driving, and you won't discover and work out either as easily on track tires - if you can learn to be smooth on street tires, you will only be faster on track tires - conversely, if you aren't smooth on track tires, you'll just be cooking them and spending a LOT of money



there is a reason that driving schools put street tires on their cars and not track tires

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash makes a good point, Maybe the smartest approach is to go with a decent but inexpensive set of street tires, like the Sumitomo HTRZIII, to re-learn how to drive the car with all the suspension mods, and then move on to something grippier once I wear those out.



My only hesitation with this is that while I've had the mantra of not going to race tires until you're really, really, REALLY ready pounded into my head for years, I've seen several beginning drivers pretty much start out on race tires, and not only do decently and keep the car on the paved stuff, but they really excelled. One of these guys (he drove a 951) had to go back to his street tires one session, and he went from leaving everyone in the dust, to being merely a slightly faster-than-average driver. He couldn't wait to get his race tires back on, after which he immediately went back to his dominating self. So I'd come to regard the "Don't you dare even think about racing tires until you're within half a second of the reigning F1 champ" as a myth. But maybe the guys I described above were exceptionally gifted drivers.

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[rl968]

You can use pilot sport cups or toyo 888s, great for track, acceptable for street. Hoosiers are not for the street, especially if its wet.

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[tamathumper]

The Skip Barber Racing School's first stage is, believe it or not, Dodge Neon's with Pilot's mounted on them. And the instructors will embarrass you as you follow them in Formula Dodge race cars.

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[flash]

the thing to remember is that the amount of time and number of sessions you would "suffer" with the race tires is not that long or that many sessions - you'll go through them quickly enough, and figure out the car at 1/3 the cost

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[pure&simple]

>> My only hesitation with this is that while I've had the mantra of not going to race tires until you're really, really, REALLY ready pounded into my head for years, I've seen several beginning drivers pretty much start out on race tires, and not only do decently and keep the car on the paved stuff, but they really excelled.



I've stayed with street tires so far because (1) it's cheaper and (2) I wanted to learn how to drive at the limit on the most forgiving kind of tire. I think a lot of guys that run race tires have no idea where the limit is - they just know that they haven't spun or crashed yet so the speed they usually go must be safe. As you said, it's also important to get the suspension dialed in, and you need to drive at the limit to see if the car will over or understeer so you can figure out what changes to make.



The one thing that's annoying with street tires is that they tend to lose grip towards the end of the session due to heat. Dunlop Direzza Star Specs (Dunlop's top-of-the-line tire) tramline like crazy on the street but need under 1 lap to warm up and handle the temperatures quite well. Not a bad idea to ask about how well street tires hold up to heat before buying.



You kinda have to run race tires to run in the top skill group without being a moving chicane, though. Especially in our cars, which are usually lacking in power compared to others.

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[Cloud9...68]

Or, if money is no object (I'd love to be able to say that to a merchant someday...), and you don't mind a little added unsprung weight, this would appear to be an ideal solution:



Center lock wheel conversion!



This conversion would reduce the number of nuts to be removed from 20 to 4, albeit at the hurculean torque of 300 lb-ft. This would make swapping out wheels at the track manageable, and I would imaging that giant thread on the adapter, and the corresponding nut, would be good for about a thousand on/offs. They definitely look the business, too.



Anybody have any experience with Forgeline wheels, by the way? They make a line of wheels specifically for track applications, and they appear to be quite serious. Yes, they're expensive, but I hesistate to buy used wheels for a car I'm going to be tracking extensively.

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