[968Z]

I'm very interested, but I am waiting on the outcome of Flash's endevour, before I decide which route to take. I'm in no rush, as Spring is several months away. $636 is a pretty good sounding price point though.

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[Harvey]

In a nutshell...what advantage does the resonator offer? I don't want a system that 's too quiet...nor do I want one that pops and crackles like a Ricer when you back off on the throttle.



Also, has B&B been tested on the Dyno? What about the others? What's the timeline on the other competitor's?



I have the money and am ready to buy but don't want to move so quickly as to shoot myself in the foot. The B&Bs that I've heard (on accelleration and cruise) sound really good.



Harvey

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[Etnier]

[quote name='968Z' date='Jan 12 2006, 12:39 PM']$636 is a pretty good sounding price point though.[/quote]Read this thread again carefully. Prices have been moving, but I think that number's something like $39.00 too low at best.

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[kgain968]

Well let's see if we can get 9 guys together, we have 6 possibles to date..



Interested members,



-kgain968

-lee

-968Z

-earossi

-G68

-Harvey

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[G68]

Can anyone answer Harvey's questions above about the resonator?

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[Brian]

i think there's quite a history on this forum about the resonator.

i'm not an expert here, but from what i remember, the general consensus was that porshe put it in to meet german sound standards which are very strict. also, there's thought that it helps create back pressure to maintain torque.

i also seem to remember a recent string of posts about how there's a huge restriction in the resonator that many members were cutting out with good results.



again, only trying to help by repeating what i think i read. may be way off base....

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[ds968]

the sales person at Evolution Motors claims the B resonator does not affect the exhaust flow at all, so it has no consequence whatsoever in terms of the system's performance as compared to the resonator-less one.. exact same back pressure, etc with or without



according to him, it's strictly a sound / resonance mitigation tool.



I contacted BB directly via emil with resonator related questions because I was considering replacing my no resonator pipe with one that has the unit...but have not had any success getting any responses.

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[flash]

a perforated resonator, the kind that B&B uses, would have a minimal effect but it would have some effect - a louvred type, like a glass pack, has a lot more, but both of those have less effect than the factory one



there has been a lot of talk lately about exhaust systems - everybody wants a better system and better sound - we are all doing whatever we can to get the most out of the car



the problem though that we keep running into, is that the basic design is flawed, so no matter what you do in the way of resonators and mufflers, you aren't getting all there is to be had, and end up with dips in the curve - it has been very frustrating and challenging, and i have played with a number of different "systems", but the bottom line is that because of the resonant induction manifold, pulse timing, and gas velocity needs, standard exhaust practice does not work as well on this car as it does on others



so far, the only benefit found is sound, a bit better throttle response, and less weight - these are all great benefits, but i want horsepower too - so far, nobody has shown, with any empirical data, any increases on a 968, in spite of some claims



i am convinced that it is there to be had, but it will require a different design



there are a few systems out there, and they are really all the same design, so consequently the same in performance, or lack thereof - any decent muffler shop can duplicate them for less than $600 - to date, the B&B seems to be the cheapest bolt up stainless system, and certainly the best known, and pete's has a better mounting setup, but having heard bob blackwell's car after mere removal of the muffler, i can't say that there is all that much difference in sound to the B&B, and it was sure cheaper



tough call - buy what is out there now? try to work something out that works better? leave it alone? modify what is in there already? from a performance standpoint, it seems to be a coin toss, and it comes down to sound and money and personal preference



and the saga continues

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[RS Barn]

I disagree with kgains approval rating (commercial) of B&B system.

I don't want to put another system down but I had several reasons to make my own.



1. Not all people were happy with noise level/resonance of B&B

2. Fair amount of failures of baffle tube. Also a 911 complaint

3. When testing any open tube design they seemed to lack midrange.

4. Without a group buy B&B was quite expensive.



Now I don't have an in house R&D, but I used industry experts to help me make a system that will accomplish my goals of better/acceptable noise, lighter weight, stainless construction, quality finish and most important better performance.

My goals for better performance were based on the ability of a system to accelerate better stock and to handle enough flow for increased hp. I have already tested my system with several performance products that produce way more hp than previously tested and will handle over 300hp.



Anyone can make their own choice but I don't need the leader of a group buy to give the top 10 reasons to buy over someone else's product. Just say you like a product and is anyone interested in going in on it.



Pete

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[flash]

all other things aside, besides the superior hanging, i also like that yours is ceramic coated - something not available in B&B - if nothing else, i'm sure that reduces resonance and smooths out the tone

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[Brian]

i don't want to get in the middle of a scrum here.

just want to say from my perspective, having installed pete's full system, that i've sensed a real increase in performance.

now, i don't have a dyno or anything but the seat of my pants. and it is saying that the car accelerates better than before.

i know that some of it is weight savings. having removed the old system, it is very heavy.

i'd swear that the throttle is more responsive now and the acceleration is smoother. there isn't that lag anymore. you do feel the variocam kick in, but not like before. getting to the red line before took a little patience. now, i look down and it's already there.

i'm no exhaust engineer, so i'm not one to say if there's any more to be done.



i'd also like to say that dealing with pete was a pleasure. he's a real class act. you don't see him here defending himself or pushing product on anyone. maybe he should because he's come up with a really nice system.

i think we're all excited to see what flash comes up with, too. with him always pushing every envelope, things never get boring around here!!!

as a novice, i'm really happy to have guys like pete and flash who are experienced and accessible. i wouldn't have had the guts to touch my car w/o this forum.

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[flash]

absolutely not - i like the quality of pete's system - clean, simple, direct bolt in



as for performance, pete's should do the same as my current system or the B&B does, because they are the same design - what you are describing is the same kind of thing we experience - there is better throttle response and a more responsive feel, it just doesn't show up in horsepower - a lot of the initial reaction though is likely due to the sensation of performance, because you can now enjoy the tone - i know that initially, i thought my system was a lot more effective than it really turned out to be later on when i checked it on a dyno



the decrease of "turbo feel" actually concerns me - it should get more pronounced, not less, as you increase power - the resonant induction manifold comes into play at that point - reduction of that effect is likely a result of loss of back pressure, and a problem with pulse timing - that is the problem i have seen with the magnaflow and flowmaster systems - my initial system was the same way - we corrected some of that with the current setup, but it still isn't right - i'd like to see a torque curve on yours

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[kgain968]

Anyone can make their own choice but I don't need the leader of a group buy to give the top 10 reasons to buy over someone else's product. Just say you like a product and is anyone interested in going in on it.

To Pete, I didn't mean to speak negatively towards your exhaust, in fact it is very interesting to me. I was only attempting to point out what I felt were proven facts about the B&B from a risk analysing point of view. It has been around for a while so one know's what they are getting and it is proven in that regard, and it has a very good finish and build quality.



This thread was started buy me to discuss a B&B exhaust and possible group buy, so I feel that mentioning the quality points such as system are relevant and in no way speaking negatively to your system.



At this point we have no date to show performance increase from either system (although it is most likely the case with your's, data would support or refute that) but in the meantime I simply stated known facts about the B&B system. If this was out of line I apologize.

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[kgain968]

What are the "basic design flaws" of the existing atermarker exhaust systems for 968?

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[flash]

i don't want to go into detail on that one until i have tested the new design, however, as i said, as a reasult of the reduction in back pressure, the pulse timing, gas velocity and resonant induction manifold are not playing well together



what you get is very deceiving in the car, but very evident on the dyno

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[Greimann]

[quote name='flash' date='Jan 14 2006, 08:49 AM']... as a reasult of the reduction in back pressure, the pulse timing, gas velocity and resonant induction manifold are not playing well together

[right][post="14574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Dang dude, to measure all these parameters you must be playing with some seriously advanced test facility. Major R&D engineering laboratory. Take some pics, I would like to see this.

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[Harvey]

[quote name='Greimann' date='Jan 14 2006, 10:19 AM']Dang dude, to measure all these parameters you must be playing with some seriously advanced test facility. Major R&D engineering laboratory. Take some pics, I would like to see this.

[right][post="14577"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Greimann makes sense.



Anytime you make your exhaust sound better, your "seat-o-the-pants" meter naturally "feels" that it's better every other way too, including HP, mid-range pull, etc. Perhaps I've worked at universities too long but I don't believe anything until I see hard data (except maybe the devices that hook to the carburators and burn water and give you 50mpg <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />. Dyno comparison pulls that are carefully staged to not show bias is a start. Without complext testing tools, it's hard to get all that we'd like from a system. or prove that any new design is better...but I encourage anyone to try it...but it has to be "papered" before I'll buy it. I like the sound of the B&B and I'll probably be buying one based on that trait and other's experience. If anyone else comes up with a better system, and can prove it, I'll sell the B&B on eBay and buy the better system. However, R&D and testing doesn't happen over night and I probably won't wait that long.



I had a custom RMB made locally for my 928 and it's nice sounding (Actually, great sounding!!!...but too loud for most). However, I really don't know if it did anything else except lighten the car (a lot). I like the idea of something I can bolt on and take off later. My custom job is welded on. The effects of optimized back pressure concern me. How you get that right is going to be hard to veryify.



Harvey

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[RS Barn]

Harvey,

I will send you dyno charts on Monday. If anything my system is too quiet and does'nt give you noise goosbumps that seem like power.

My system is a direct bolt on.

Pete

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[flash]

dave - actually most of it is probably going to be computer modeling - the software already exists to do much of this without having to have an R&D facility at all - the intake manifold is a bit of a curve ball, but it isn't too bad



harvey - that's what has me on the fence with producing them - it would be a lot easier to just do the trial and error thing until we get it right - dyno tests would show the increases, but getting there and verifying the results in any other fashion, and showing the flaw with the design that everyone is currently using is a tough one



the probem is a tough one - we think we know what is causing it - we think we know what to do about it - the execution and where it goes from there is the remaining issue



while i would love to be able to make these for everybody else, i may find that it is just too tough, and end up with just one for myself - again, i would not be doing this at all if somebody else would address the torque dip problem that occurs with all of the free flow systems out there to date - i would much rather just plop down my money and be done with this - what i have now doesn't suck - it's as good as you can get in this design, i would gain nothing but weight by changing at this point, and it only cost a touch over 500 bucks - but, i want that last extra bit that i know is there if i can just recreate what the factory system did to the flow

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[RS Barn]

Flash,

Did you see the dyno curve on the Cayman S? The torque dip on that motor is huge. Makes ours truley just a blip. I was trying to find it and post. It must be a variocam related thing.

Pete

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