[Jamie '92 968]

pure&simple,



What shop are you using for alignments?



Jamie

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[pure&simple]

Performance Automotive in Malvern. Great guys, awesome equipment, and they setup a fair number of race cars. With solid bushings everywhere my car is incredibly sensitive to toe. When I take it there, it always comes back feeling awesome.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Lonestar968]

Howdy gang,



I wanted to report in with my experience with Flash's alignment spec recommendations, after installing new tires and wheels on my car. I hope others can use my experience for their own benefit.



I bought a set of wheels and tires from a fellow PCA member. He had the tires installed on his late-model 996 turbo for about 100 miles, but grew weary of the "small look of the 18" wheels" and wanted to go "large", so he installed 19" Champion wheels and Michelin Pilot Sport tires all around (315's on 11" in the rear!!! Holy smoke!!!).



My new-to-me set of wheels and tires consist of: 997 Turbo factory wheels (8 and 10in) with Sumitomo HTR ZIII tires, size 225/40 ZR 18 in front, 295/30 ZR 18 out back at 38 psi. I've been playing with the pressure since installing them. They were at 38 psi for the alignment. My car sits on factory suspension.



The first thing I did was have the entire car checked out, specifically for suspension-related wear, etc. Every single bushing, bracket, nut and bolt was very closely (visually) inspected by the shop, only after I had performed my own inspection with the car up on the rack a couple of weeks ago, while changing the oil/filter.



Everything checked out fine, so we went right into the alignment process. I chose to go with Flash's "More improvement" alignment spec option, after much mental debate.



I followed Flash's advice and placed an approximate amount of weight in the driver's seat (and floorboard/pedal area) that would match my own weight. The gas tank was exactly 1/2 full and the drive to the shop took about 25 minutes, so everything was up to normal operating temperature. The ambient temp was apx 92 degrees with a humidity of apx 16%.



The alignment shop uses a six-year-old Hunter digital alignment system that had done 836 alignments, prior to mine. The technician has completed over 10,000 alignments in his career (verified by a very cool award on the wall in the showroom). Of those alignments, about 150 have been done on a variety of Porsche vehicles, mostly 911-series of all years/models. He performs all of the race alignments on our Region members' race cars, so he understands the necessity to "get it right the first time". He is very thorough and quite competent, to say the very least.



It took him 2 hours and 18 minutes to complete my alignment, but I have to say, it was the best $90 I ever spent on any alignment in my life.



My wife and I drove the car to Flagstaff for Escape 2011 and the it performed flawlessly. It holds the road to perfection. She actually likes driving the car again. I think I am MOST pleased with saying "goodbye" to constantly fighting the steering wheel, due to tramlining. Only the most serious of road surface differentiation, such as angular transitions in construction zones and on/off ramps, will cause a twitch in the wheel noticeable enough to require the drivers attention. The days of slot car-like tramlining are gone! Thank God!!!



I'll let you all know how the car performs on the track with slicks installed (on 993 Turbo hollow-spoke wheels, 8 and 10"), after the "OktoberFiesta" event, later this month. I am oh-so-happy to be rid of the old Continental Sport Contact tires I had installed previously. They were a few years old and definitely due for retirement. On the track, they were much like driving on ice. Yikes!!!



I'll report in again later, after I have logged some serious track laps on the new setup. I'll let you know how the street tires wear also.



Thanks Flash, for your efforts to systematically run down the best alignment options for all 968ers worldwide, as well as the general good of the marque. Bravo!



Dan

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Lonestar968]

Oops. I forgot to annotate the shop name and tech. The shop is a local chain in El Paso, TX by the name of Martin Tire. They have a few locations, but my club recommended I go to their location at 901 Texas Avenue, El Paso - (915) 532-6519, and book my appointment with "Brian". Very good advice indeed!!!



Dan

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[ds968]

It's amazing how even a minor alignment change can make the car feel like a completely different vehicle. Flash introduced me to this shop in LA which had more Ferraris , Lambos, and other exotic cars that you could imagine in some small unassuming place as that was, but IIRC, it cost around $250 ( and that was a " friends and family " discounted price ) to get my 968 custom-tuned specifically to the driving habits I conveyed to him, and I must say, well worth it the price. But since I can' t just drive down there every time I need an alignment, I got a printout of the specs, I hand them to a top notch shop here which also deals with high end sports cars, but charges only about $ 200 for the job, so I'm content. And they do check the the four corner weight and height with the driver in the car, as well as balance your tires UNDER LOAD if you wish, but that load weight balancing does cost anothe $ 100 or so..

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[bombfactory]

Flash please post any revised and/or updated alignment specs and /or recommendations since your latest visit to West End.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

i tried to go to the link: [color="#0f72da"]http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Stru..._bar_theory.htm[/color] but was unable to find any article on anything to do with Porsche strut towers etc>



Do you have a better link?



William Moss

1995 M030 limited slip 968 coupe

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

to my knowledge, the only information on strut towers for this car is here, and it is buried in and amongst other information on the car. we don't have anything specific on strut towers.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[vliegwielolaf1234]

Had the car corner balanced , and alignment done , and used the one with modest improvment in cornering and tire wear .

Did a small adjustment in the castor and camber , and it now works like a dream .

The main thing was finding a shop , that understands the rear end of these cars , and can adjust it and have the tools required for the job

But in paid off , also the settings here on the forum gave me a place to start ,

The biggest problem was that the car was very nervous on the brakes at high speed , this gone now .

Top .

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[AJG]

Flash have you seen/used the uni-ball strut tower top mounts available from Duetsch Nine? And if so are they usable on a road car? Cheers.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

i have not used them.



everything is "useable". what it tolerable can be a different story. it also depends on what else you have going on in the car.



the bottom line is that the OEM mounts do a couple of jobs. the dampen impact, as well as reduce bump steer and deflection. they also provide the correct angle for the strut shaft. a spherical bearing mount can handle the latter, but not the former. how much that bugs you is subjective.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[AJG]

By the way Flash are you still contemplating a strut top mount design yourself? I seem to remember a price of 1000$(each?) being mentoned for new ones. Porschshop does them for £320 each.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

nope - i canned that project. porsche did a really good job on the part. i can't make one that will work that well for a reasonable cost. rubber encapsulating a bearing, and getting the dampening right, is very hard. i just bought new ones. they are a little over $300 each from sunset.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_Oz_S2]

I prefer the "accuracy" of the solid mounts much more than the rubber. I briefly swapped back to rubber when the crappy uniball ones failed. These reduced the accuracy of the steering somewhat (especially turn in response). I now run the ground control adjustable camber mounts that have the correct thrust bearing arrangement. These are great and let me get the -3 camber I need for Hoosier R6s on the front. The mounts really aren't that harsh.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

i get the argument, and which is why i tried a solid plate type mount. the resultant dash rattle was incredibly annoying. i pulled them out within minutes.



i couldn't run the ground control units and retain the strut tower brace. they sit too high. i also can't run that much negative camber because it results in a reduction of overall contact patch area, and puts too much heat on the outside tire. but then, the chassis flex is what leads to much of the camber change, and due to the bracing, without the flex i don't need as much camber anyway.



so, for me, fresh OEM units are the trick. but then, i plan to drive this car on the street, and by that i mean as the car was designed, and not just put up with crap until i can get to the track. i'm following the 85% rule when it comes to design choices. i find that if i keep that in mind, i end up much happier, even though it may mean a compromise in one area or another.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Eric_Oz_S2' timestamp='1338288324' post='127545']

I prefer the "accuracy" of the solid mounts much more than the rubber. I briefly swapped back to rubber when the crappy uniball ones failed. These reduced the accuracy of the steering somewhat (especially turn in response). I now run the ground control adjustable camber mounts that have the correct thrust bearing arrangement. These are great and let me get the -3 camber I need for Hoosier R6s on the front. The mounts really aren't that harsh.

[/quote]

Glad to hear you're happy with your solid mounts. I'm going to install camber plates as well (Racers Edge), plus I have solid/spherical bushings all around, so it's definitely going to be harsh, but it's mainly going to be a track car. Or maybe I'll get tired of driving it on the street so fast that I'll want to buy another one for the street <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

anybody contemplating this route, please realize that any such plate that sits on top of the strut tower will prevent use of the D1R strut tower brace. there is NO room for any increased height of the bracket.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... I thought I checked my Racers Edge camber plates, and they seemed to be OK, but it sounds like I should check again. They're very low profile, as I recall. Any progress on a racing version of the brace, by the way?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

to be clear, if the plates sit on top of the tower, rather than underneath, they will NOT work with the brace. they will push the brace brackets upward into your hood.



no further progress on a race version. i just haven't had the time to make a prototype to test, and i don't think the market is there. the gains are going to be pretty minimal too. at full deflection, the lateral tower movement is limited to .005". that's pretty darned small. it represents less than .01 degrees. essentially no change in geometry. a stiffer brace would not help anything, and could result in ripping the sheet metal.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[AJG]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1338230905' post='127522']

nope - i canned that project. porsche did a really good job on the part. i can't make one that will work that well for a reasonable cost. rubber encapsulating a bearing, and getting the dampening right, is very hard. i just bought new ones. they are a little over $300 each from sunset.

[/quote]

Bob could you expand on "sunset". This seems a lot cheaper than the UK. Also, all this discussion about suspension made me give mine a critical eye and its all over the place. Basically its low at the rear driver side which is pullng the front driver side down as well. You mentioned earlier that 25.5" ride height as being ROWM030, does that include standard CS and Sport models also which are 20mm lower than standard coupes. Also also, are American cars not slightly different ride height from ROW anyway? Sorry to make this post slightly technical, it goes against the grain, will return to normal stupidity soon.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.