[speedysprocket]

Well torque tube is in and sure looks like there will be enough from around the firewall area for the bell housing. Hoping to put the read suspension back on tomorrow.

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[flash]

you didn't put the bell housing in first?

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[speedysprocket]

The bell housing is not bolted to the tube yet. Will the 968 engine go in from the top with the bell housing already bolted to the tube?

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[flash]

i thought the engine was already in there. are you going about this the other way and putting the engine in after the fact?

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[speedysprocket]

Engine is still on the stand, empty block. See my rebuild thread...

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[flash]

ah - hmmm - not sure you can get the motor in from the top with the bell housing connected to the torque tube. never tried.

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[speedysprocket]

I'll bolt it in after. 968 tube doesn't have the ears that keep it from going too far back, so I should have enough room.

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

You can install engine from top with bellhousing on - done it (need to remove PS pulley). What you can't do is install it with the pressure plate on.

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[flash]

why not? if the bell housing is on there, which sits outside and beyond the clutch assembly, what is it about the pressure plate that interferes? or is it just because you don't have a clutch alignment tool, and have to rely on the drive shaft, so having that bolted in is a problem?

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

The bellhousing is on the torque tube. If you take it off the tt, then you have to deal with the driveshaft protrusion. The thust bearing then protrudes too far from the flywheel and makes it too long. Install the pp once the engine is level with driveshaft, but engine still forward (radiator and fans removed). 968 may have more room as there is no protruding bonnet catch like the 94;

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[vliegwielolaf1234]

I have done a few . But always with the clutch and belhousing in place on the engine

I think it is going to be near to impossible to.reach all the bolts of the bellhousing .

Getting the driveshaft in is no issue , but fans and radiator should be removed , but i guess he allready has , since there is no way to take the engine out with those in place .

The power steering pully can also stay on , but, i always loosen the bolt on the cranshaft and pully,s and oilpump sleave before it take the engine out , is way easier with the engine in place , same procedure when installing do not forget !!

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[Dubai944]

My car is an S2. The 968 engine bolted straight in originally. I have interchanged the 944 S2 five speed with a 968 6 speed a couple of times while my 5 speed was having its rebuilds without changing the torque tube.

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[speedysprocket]

Cool, thanks guys. I got the rear suspension back in today and pulled the wire harness out. Just need to finish assembling the 968 engine now...

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1385068141' post='152694']

unfortunately you can't see what is going on from the outside. i had no idea that my front bearing had completely walked off, until i pulled the engine and looked down the tube. that would have been very ugly left unchecked.

[/quote]

So if my old tube bearing stayed in place for 150,000 km until grit got into it (tape failed) and failed, why can't a replacement one stay in place? WHat is so magic about what Porsche did that a replacement can't replicate?

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[flash]

i don't know that it's magic. i do know that porsche stopped making the slit ones for this reason. i also know what we have seen, and what the world's leading experts on these torque tubes says. i was willing to pay whatever they wanted, and they tried a number of times. they concluded it cannot be done. it's right there on their website.



there is also a very large difference between an S2 and a 968 engine. the vibrations generated between the two, and how they are handled, are very different.

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[Dubai944]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1385394294' post='152825']

there is also a very large difference between an S2 and a 968 engine. the vibrations generated between the two, and how they are handled, are very different.[/quote]



Curious what you think are the very large differences. Evolutionary differences, yes, but it is basically the same basic design, same capacity, same firing order, same balance shafts. Apart from the minor weight differences between piston and rods and valves, where would you account for very large differences in vibrations between the two? The S2 used a harmonic balancer whereas the 968 used a dual mass flywheel, but both address the same issue don't they?

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1385394294' post='152825']i don't know that it's magic. i do know that porsche stopped making the slit ones for this reason. i also know what we have seen, and what the world's leading experts on these torque tubes says. i was willing to pay whatever they wanted, and they tried a number of times. they concluded it cannot be done. it's right there on their website.



there is also a very large difference between an S2 and a 968 engine. the vibrations generated between the two, and how they are handled, are very different.[/quote]



They concluded it can't be done, yet I have done it. It must be true if it is on their website. Hmmm....



I can see the problems, but suggest that may be because of their bearing design. I used the same Porsche spec bearing (the one they say is not available - it is) with delrin (which they say will slip - it doesn't if done to spec). You can't believe everything you read.

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[flash]

it doesn't take much to find the limits of these torque tubes. i am now making enough power that i can feel the shaft flex and snap back. solid flywheels really mess things up too. while the solid tubes are better, even they have limits.



it's not about reading either. we tried to do this. blacksea spent a LOT of time and money, to no avail. they were in a position to make money on all the poor guys who have that tube. it was in their best interest to figure out a way to do it. they concluded it is not feasible. i don't see how anybody can avoid that logic. i personally worked with them on this, and spent a month trying different things, including the OEM bearings. nothing works. my engine makes too much power. on top of that, the solid flywheel really messes things up, and is the primary reason i had to go back to the DMF. i even had the S2 balancer on there, and it still wasn't enough. i tried to build a spring center clutch (almost a dozen different types), and it didn't work either.



before all of this, i had my solid tube previously rebuilt by the guy who is the local torque tube expert, whom everybody knows and respects. the car only had 25k miles on it. it lasted no more 25k miles before the bearing walked out. not sure how much less, as you really can't tell until you take it apart. this was all due to the vibrations from the solid flywheel.



my engine builder says he sees it all the time on track cars.



that split tube may be fine for your average street car, but it does not hold up to the harsh duty of track.



as for differences, the balancer and the dmf are by no means anywhere equal in dampening. keep in mind that the S2 also has a spring center clutch. a 968 with a solid flywheel makes a mess of things. it's even worse with one that is not balanced. i went through ridiculous effort to try to resolve this issue. nothing worked. yes, i could drive the car just fine. however, things did not stay put, and ultimately i had to pull it apart again.



also, the torque increase of the 968 over the S2, due to the dual resonant manifold of the 968 over the single resonant manifold of the S2, and increased charge force from it, adds to the pulse, which changes the vibrations. harmonics are complicated things. it's not necessarily something you can feel either. however, it is something you see happening from the failed parts.



it's all about the use though. in stock trim, driven on the street as intended, things are fine. you could probably use any kind of tube you wanted. you start messing around with power, or put the car on the track, things change and all bets are off. it also depends on how long you want things to last. i can build a 1000hp 968 engine. it will last about 2 minutes.



this is how i ended up spending $160k on this car. it took a lot of time and money to figure out what works, and what doesn't. corner cutting doesn't work. i think i finally have a combination that will last, but i still know that i have gone way outside the envelope, and only time will tell.

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

Just to clarify, my experience with a rebuilt split tube is on a supercharged car that is predominantly used on the track.

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[flash]

give it some time. it took a while for me to see the problem. it took blacksea some serious testing to show it too. again, you can't see the problem from the outside either. there are no initial symptoms

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