[lbpesq]

I was watching Wheeler Dealers and they put "waterless coolant" in a TR6 which, they said, has a higher boiling temp so it works well with a car like a Triumph that is known for overheating problems. In addition, there is no corrosion of the engine caused by water, and the cooling system runs without pressure - you can remove the radiator cap at full operating temp! I've never heard of waterless coolant, but a quick google search reveals that Jay Leno has been using it in his classic cars for 16 years. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? It sounds too good to be true for my '58 TR3.



Bill

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[DaveN]

Waiting to hear more from this thread. Just have to add I have seen most of that series and it is great fun.

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[flash]

didn't they try that with the 911? i think they called it air



seriously though - the theory is sound. just not sure how it will interact with our engine materials. it looks like it is mostly developed for older cars and iron blocks.

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[DaveN]

Read about this stuff a lot last night and while it looks interesting there a few caveats. It is expensive to initially install but it is good for a lifetime and the conditioning fluid is reusable. The main problem is the heat transfer coefficient. It is quite a bit lower than water and given that we have hot engines that doesn't bode well. For a Corvette install they actually change the water pump to one with more flow just to exchange the heat faster.

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[pure&simple]

Jay Leno did an interesting video on this with one of the manufacturers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ



The waterless coolant boils at 350F, so one of the benefits is that the cooling system does not have to be pressurized to increase the boiling point. Another supposed benefit of the high boiling point is that the coolant does not boil at hot spots in the block, providing more even cooling.

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[flash]

it's not that it does not have to be pressurized, it's that pressure does not increase, due to the higher boiling point. water boils at 100C, and it is the weak link. the engine runs right below that. this means that you are very near boiling all the time, with little headroom for altitude or other conditions that can cause overheating. this coolant alleviates that problem.



i'm not buying the rest of the stuff though. coolant would not affect hot spots, unless it was somehow magically getting to places the other coolant isn't. it can, however, prevent vapor hot spots. these happen when you get cold water introduced to a hot area, like in the water pump and near the thermostat. this can cause hot spots in those areas. this coolant would not do that, as it is waterless. i'm also not buying any fuel economy increase. coolant temp would not affect that, unless there was something wrong with the system.



as i said though, the theory is sound. i wonder about our application though, and i'm not likely to be the guinea pig on this, given how many problems we have already seen with our systems.

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[Lear35A]

Since I have ductile iron sleeves, I have been tempted to try this. It's pretty expensive, but compared to the other costs I've incurred in my 4 or 5 rebuilds it's not so much. I'm close be ready to fire mine up again, so I'll have to make the decision soon.

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[Cloud9...68]

I don't understand why a "superior" coolant would be necessary. I haven't taken my car out on the road yet (still putting the suspension together), but my observation over the years that I've owned this car is that as long as the cooling system is operaing properly (fan switches all working, no bubbles in the system, no obstructions in the coolant passages, healthy water pump, etc.), the coolant temp stays in a safe range, even in extremely hot climates. So, I disagree with the premise that these are "hot engines."



When I first got my car, the temp gauge never got above the 8 oclock line, even on the hottest central Texas day, in stop-and-go traffic. Then, a few years ago, it suddenly changed - it was having difficulty staying below 9 oclock, with occasional excursions to the 10 oclock area. After a lot of troubleshooting, several people told me to ignore this, and/or that the gauge wasn't reliable, anyway. Then, during the course of my recent rebuild, I discovered the cause of the problem - the insulation on several of the fan switch wires which were buried in a hard-to-see area had been torn off, exposing the wires. I repaired this, and have run the engine at a fast idle several times, long enough to have gotten to at least 9 oclock on the gauge, and it is pegged at 8 oclock, with no sign of wanting to move any higher. I'll of course confirm when I get the car back on the road, but at this point, it looks like my coolant temperature is back to behaving the way it did when I first got the car, without the assistance of any type of magic coolant.

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[tamathumper]

Which begs the question, "How do you put Water Wetter in Waterless Coolant?"

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[MB968]

Bill, I'm not really sure I see the benefits either. Although I never had any issues with my TR-3 overheating, I know almost all cars back then had marginal engine cooling. I'd suggest you pull off the fan, and mount electic ones. I'd think those would give you better overall cooling performance than a liquid change. They are a fairly easy mod to make.

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[kzem1]

I heard from a friend of mine in Ohio that the tracks up there now mandate Water Wetter instead of coolant/antifreeze in radiators to keep coolant/antifreeze off the track when someone has an issue with their cooling system. Anyone heard of that elsewhere?

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[flash]

yup - been that way for years in a number of groups

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[Cloud9...68]

Yes, I know that's a NASA requirement. Not sure about the other series. I suspect this would also rule out this waterless coolant stuff.



Tama,



Lol - good one.

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[flash]

probably. if it doesn't boil until 180C, i can't imagine it would evaporate quickly.

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[Cloud9...68]

Good point.

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[pure&simple]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1360694406' post='138669']

it's not that it does not have to be pressurized, it's that pressure does not increase, due to the higher boiling point. water boils at 100C, and it is the weak link. the engine runs right below that. this means that you are very near boiling all the time, with little headroom for altitude or other conditions that can cause overheating. this coolant alleviates that problem.



i'm not buying the rest of the stuff though. coolant would not affect hot spots, unless it was somehow magically getting to places the other coolant isn't. it can, however, prevent vapor hot spots. these happen when you get cold water introduced to a hot area, like in the water pump and near the thermostat. this can cause hot spots in those areas. this coolant would not do that, as it is waterless. i'm also not buying any fuel economy increase. coolant temp would not affect that, unless there was something wrong with the system.



as i said though, the theory is sound. i wonder about our application though, and i'm not likely to be the guinea pig on this, given how many problems we have already seen with our systems.

[/quote]



Perhaps we are saying the same thing with respect to pressure. My understanding is that the reason normal cooling systems are pressurized is to raise the boiling point of the coolant. Because this coolant is in no danger of boiling, there is no need for the system to be pressurized beyond what is needed to circulate the coolant.



Coolant affects hot spots in exactly the sense that you mentioned - it either vaporizes on contact (water/anti-freeze) which doesn't do much to cool the hotspot on the block, or it stays liquid (NGP) and cools effectively.



Fuel economy increase is explained in the video. It seems that diesel engines gain efficiency from being able to run hotter than normal, which is made possible by waterless coolant.



EDIT: remove multi-quote fail <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

maybe



normal systems are pressurized only because they are sealed, which is to prevent boilover and the resultant coolant loss. the fact that the boiling point rises with pressure is a happy accident of sorts, and manufacturers take advantage of that, in varying degrees.



as for hot spots, as i said, the only hot spots where it could have a measureable effect is where it could suddenly go through a temperature change, and the coolant flow was changed. a hot spot like in the cylinder wall or head would not be affected. the coolant moves too fast there. that being said, there is value to resolving even those hot spots. consistent temperature is the key to success, and this might work well. the theory is sound.



i know diddly about diesels. i was only referring to gasoline engines. without other changes, or something out of the ordinary, fuel economy is not affected measurably by different coolants or coolant operating temperature range.

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[pure&amp;simple]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1360702414' post='138678']

I don't understand why a "superior" coolant would be necessary.

[/quote]

Only necessary if you track your car, or have increased the power output substantially. As you pointed out, not necessary for daily driving.



I have a high-pressure radiator cap, use water wetter, and on a hot track day with a stock engine I still have to watch the temp gauge.

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[flash]

the 10 o'clock line on the gauge is only 212 degrees F. i know it seems like it's really high there, but it's not. that's where every chevy on the planet runs. the base of the vertical line is more like what you should be watching. that's 115 C or 239 F. that's hot. if you're getting up there, then there is a problem.



if you're getting up there, i'd say you need a larger capacity radiator, or that one cleaned out. it's either that or your combustion temps are too high and you are superheating the coolant. there are a number of things that can cause that though.



back on topic



it will be interesting to see if anybody tries this stuff, and what change it makes.

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[Lear35A]

OK, I'll give it a try. Not sure when I'll be running, but shouldn't be too long.

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