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wake up call
#41

it is great that it has stayed civil



to be clear, i am not a big gore fan - i've met the man on more than one occasion, and was singularly underwhelmed - i've also worked for his boss, who i liked a lot better - i spent a lot of years working for the other side too - i have no alignments either way, and have views that are in common with both parties



i am not "putting a lot of weight" into any one film, but was impressed at the presentation - i also did not find it controversial - i've seen this data long before that film was conceived, and have known about the problem for at least 30 years - heck, we began studying it in elementary school (granted, it was an accelerated program) - i'm just surprised it has taken this long for people to wake up



i have one word of advice - look at the data - don't follow the conclusions of any documentary or analysis - do it yourself



you can choose to deny it, or rely on somebody else's agendas in disseminating the information, or you can step up to the plate and demand real analysis



remember, "they" said that nobody would dare ever strike us on our home turf too
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#42

I thought this would add some contrast:



Gore's Truth?



20/20 Stossel



Many consider Gore's movie as science fiction. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wacko.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#43

lol - and many consider that the idea that this country will see the next century is a fairy tale
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#44

Regardless of one's opinion of anthropogenic global warming, I believe John Stossel is a national treasure. One of my favorite books ever is Stossel's "Myths, Lies, and Sheer Stupidity." Stossel is a libertarian who dishes out the goods on both sides of the political fence, which dramatically increases his credibility in my book. Plus, like me, he is a natural skeptic. I only wish he were running for president.



But enough gushing about Stossel. I have a small, totally non-scientific, anectodal experience I'd like to throw into the mix. I just got back from visiting my mom in the San Farncisco Bay Area (where I grew up). She live in a house not far off the bay, so it stays pretty cool most of the time, though they occasionally get a few hot summer days. When her house was built in the mid 70s, it had an air conditioning system installed to deal with those occasional hot days. After about 30 years or understandably light use, it finally gave up its ghost this year. So, after 30 years of dramatically increasing atmospheric CO2 levels, one would think that replacing the unit would be a fairly urgent priority. So I asked her when she was going to replace it. She said "No, there's no need. It just never gets hot enough to really need it." Hmmm.... interesting.... Not sure the debate is really over...
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#45

I am always amazed with this debate....the solar system is much to dynamic for us little humans to understand.....we think we know damn near everything only to be provide wrong over time. This planet orbits a fiery ball of gas....how consistent are both? A few degrees in orbital rotation or temp increase and you’d have the same. This planet cycles thru a timetable were our existence is a joke...we need to quit being so egocentric...really...we’re not important!
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#46

lol - down here, people are losing their minds - we had 12 days in a row last year that were 108 - that has never happened - most of my neighbors grew up here, and have long memories on this



i grew up in the bay area, but not so close to the water - i was just talking to a buddy there in my home town who just had to increase his system due to the consistently higher temps - he owns a construction company and said that his case is typical in those areas



in newport, where ayn's parents have lived for the past 30 years, the change has not been nearly so dramatic, and not many have made any changes



this is largely a locality thing though when it comes to whether or not people notice the change - 2-3 degrees won't really be noticed, but the 10 degrees that areas with a wind block have seen is significant - areas near the ocean have a huge temperature insulator that maintains temps much better - go inland and it gets ugly
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#47

I’m not denying it’s Hot....I grew up in the Bahamas in the 70’s and could stay out all day long and not get burned by the sun. Something has clearly changed....are humans effecting the planet...sure you bet....are we the cause of what we’re experiencing in climate change....I personally have issue with this....I just think there are larger forces at work that we don’t have a handle on or even understand. There’s so much we just don’t understand when it comes to solar energy and our atmosphere.
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#48

Global warming is one thing to worry about, but you also get mother nature's rebound ice age to balance everything out again.
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#49

What really struck a cord with me is the fact that Gore's camp refuses to meet and compare details & data with those that have an opposing theory. If what Gore believes is rock solid than he has everything to gain a nothing to lose. However if Gore is puling our collective legs then there's a lot to lose... [read big $$] <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#50

uh - they did
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#51

Folks,



Make sure to read a little deeper and keep an open mind. There is evidence such as in ice cores over centuries, that CO2 concentrations follow the temperature change, not precede it. We have to keep an eye on this data. Up until I saw some of this evidence, all the charts show temperature and CO2 concentrations fairly closely aligned, therefore providing no evidence of cause and effect. Some of the data shows that first the earth gets warmer, and then subsequently the CO2 concentrations increase. (for example: had shown that temperature increases in the ice core data actually preceded CO2 increases). There are of course many other references available, including climatology reports.



What makes this whole global warming phenomenon so maddening is:

1. in the various writings people refuse to differentiate between natural climate change and man's effect on the climate.

2. refusal (ok, partially guilty above) to consider other climate influences like methane, also controlled in part my humans.

3. people's inability to take a step back and consider how rich our world is, for example how much of our resources we pour into things like the legal and financial services industries (not much produced there, only brokered or arbitrated), and the hubris of mankind, that we have such incredible capabilities and resources that we now want to control worldwide climate. Damn, we are a really rich country, if we have so much money poured into the legal system, and the result is just shifting stuff here and there, and now we can spend more legal money to arbitrate carbon credits -- great... no value added to mankind, just shifting here and there, deciding who wins and who losses. So is that why we are worried about climate change, because we are so rich and have nothing better to do?



Roland
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#52

the chicken or egg argument is a dance-around one



"new instrumentation" could be as flawed as "old instrumentation" - new does not always mean better - i think there is a lot more that will happen before the final word on what came first is determined



the bottom line is that the oceans are warming - this increases CO2 which speeds up more ocean warming and ice melting, which speeds up more ocean warming and more ice melting.......



lowering CO2 is the only way to slow that down - that means stop burning fossil fuels, and stop burning forests (since the trees are the source of oxygen)
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#53

A chicken is an Egg’s way of making more Eggs <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#54

[quote name='flash' post='56775' date='Jul 27 2008, 06:12 AM']lowering CO2 is the only way to slow that down - that means stop burning fossil fuels, and stop burning forests (since the trees are the source of oxygen)[/quote]

Speaking of burning forests, one thing I've always wondered is how much CO2 is emitted from these annual massive forest fires, mostly in California, that I think are usually started by nature (lightning strikes and the like). There must be an awful lot of tons of wood contained in the hundreds of thousands of acres in these fires. The interesting thing is that these fires are then put out by people, so this is at least one example of humans actually reducing CO2 emissions.



But, as has been stated numerous times throughout this thread, none of this really matters, because of the following, which ties into the last sentence of 968Syncro's post:



1. Before a country gets to the point where they are in a position to care much about things like the public safety, pollution, and finally, global warming, they need to reach a certain level of economic prosperity.



2. Getting to this point requires the establishment of massive infrastructure to support an economic and industrial engine.



3. A critical part of step 2 is the enablement of ready mobility of the populace, allowing the people to get to the jobs created by the economic engine, and to the places of commerce.



4. Steps 2 and 3 require massive amounts of fuel, and because the countries in these formative stages are not yet wealthy, the fuel needs to be the least expensive, not to mention the most efficient and most easily transportable one available (this means petroleum based, hands down).



This isn't rocket science, and has been well known for decades, but what makes our current situation unique is that four enourmous nations, the BRIC countries of Brazil, Russia (did you know that Russians have surpassed Germany as the purchasers of them most cars in Europe? I for one was shocked to read that), Inda, and China, simultaneaoulsy stand at the cusp of steps 2 and 3. And others aren't far behind. Which means the probability of worldwide CO2 emissions going down anytime soon is exactly ZERO.



Now, given today's fast-paced global economy, perhaps the pace of these developing countries getting to the point where they're in a position to do anything about CO2 emissions may accelerate, but in the best case scenario, we have many decades of rapidly-climbing CO2 emissions before it can be turned around. That's not putting one's head in the sand; it's simply facing reality.
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#55

While I'm not convinced the CO2 has as much to do with climate change as some have suggested... Forest fires are actually carbon neutral. The CO2 would be released eventually when the tree dies and decays. Unless the trees are made into durable goods or long-lasting structures most of that carbon is going to get out somehow.



The burning of coal and oil takes impounded hydrocarbons from deep beneath the earth and puts them into play. If we left them be that carbon would probably not be a factor in any meaningful way.



That being said, I feel that the concern about humans changing the climate is reasonable but overreacting to what might not be a near-term problem will cause more harm than good. I feel a slow, natural transition to cleaner, more efficient, renewable energy sources is best and despite what anyone says that is what's probably going to happen.



I think we need to do the smart things. Use less, waste less. Even if we could continue to live the way we do now for 100 years without harm to the planet or running out of oil, that doesn't mean it's not smarter to conserve, improve and save. It's cheaper in the long run if nothing else.



Technology will help us out, and already has. In the not too distant future (5 years?) there will not be many good reasons not to use photovoltaic solar arrays on our roofs. A plug-in electric car for local commuting will be sustainable and affordable. Those things are just beginning to be smart investments now, to some extent solar energy is still sort of a hobby and running an electric car definitely is. I'm just starting to see investment in solar arrays by homeowners look like a smart choice but it does require something like 15 years to run in the black. If I had the money I'd probably buy financial stocks instead and get the solar array in 5-7 years when the break-even is more like 5 years off.



In 30 years I think gasoline-powered cars and trucks will be rather quaint. Trying to turn that 30 years into 15 would probably be an economic disaster. We need time for the alternatives to be available and viable, and for the long-term benefits to be appealing to people who have to choose what technologies to invest in. The market reacted to things like changing television technology, high efficiency appliances, CF light bulbs etc. People had the option to pay more for a smarter long-term choice, and many did. Eventually the better choice nearly became the only choice, and the price came down and made it a no-brainer. I think energy and transportation will follow a similar track.



Just my opinion.

-Joel.
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#56

Quote:uh - they did

Oh really, when..?

Gore keeps repeating "the debate is over". Most would get the impression it's his way or no-way. As I said earlier, if Gore and his cronies have their ducks in a row, what do they have to fear. Why not have a public forum rather than closed door politics...
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#57

lol - i posted a link to it earlier in one of these darned threads



and i agree about the public forum - we really need to do that
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#58

[quote name='jfrahm' post='56784' date='Jul 27 2008, 01:07 PM']While I'm not convinced the CO2 has as much to do with climate change as some have suggested... Forest fires are actually carbon neutral. The CO2 would be released eventually when the tree dies and decays. Unless the trees are made into durable goods or long-lasting structures most of that carbon is going to get out somehow.



The burning of coal and oil takes impounded hydrocarbons from deep beneath the earth and puts them into play. If we left them be that carbon would probably not be a factor in any meaningful way.



That being said, I feel that the concern about humans changing the climate is reasonable but overreacting to what might not be a near-term problem will cause more harm than good. I feel a slow, natural transition to cleaner, more efficient, renewable energy sources is best and despite what anyone says that is what's probably going to happen.



I think we need to do the smart things. Use less, waste less. Even if we could continue to live the way we do now for 100 years without harm to the planet or running out of oil, that doesn't mean it's not smarter to conserve, improve and save. It's cheaper in the long run if nothing else.



Technology will help us out, and already has. In the not too distant future (5 years?) there will not be many good reasons not to use photovoltaic solar arrays on our roofs. A plug-in electric car for local commuting will be sustainable and affordable. Those things are just beginning to be smart investments now, to some extent solar energy is still sort of a hobby and running an electric car definitely is. I'm just starting to see investment in solar arrays by homeowners look like a smart choice but it does require something like 15 years to run in the black. If I had the money I'd probably buy financial stocks instead and get the solar array in 5-7 years when the break-even is more like 5 years off.



In 30 years I think gasoline-powered cars and trucks will be rather quaint. Trying to turn that 30 years into 15 would probably be an economic disaster. We need time for the alternatives to be available and viable, and for the long-term benefits to be appealing to people who have to choose what technologies to invest in. The market reacted to things like changing television technology, high efficiency appliances, CF light bulbs etc. People had the option to pay more for a smarter long-term choice, and many did. Eventually the better choice nearly became the only choice, and the price came down and made it a no-brainer. I think energy and transportation will follow a similar track.



Just my opinion.

-Joel.[/quote]

Joel,



Good point about forest fires being carbon neutral in the long run. Although, I would think the massive fires we've seen annually over the last decade or so must be speeding up the increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration.



You make a lot of very good points throughout your post. I agree that we need to take measured steps to eventually move toward alternative fuels, rather than trying to move radically against market forces to try to rush alternatives onto the market while petroleum based fuels are still available and relatively affordable. I'm not sure I agree that in 30 years, gas-fueled vehicles will appear quaint, because of the massive thermodynamic advantage gasoline holds over any of the alternatives, nor do I expect to see a whole lot of solar panels on car roofs, hoods, and trunks, but who knows?



What I think will happen, and I think it's already started, is that much like in the 70s, people, at least in the developed countries, will get serious about conserving, and will begin replacing their gas guzzlers (though who is going to buy them...?) with far more fuel-efficient vehicles over the next 5-10 years. This should help keep a lid on oil prices, with an opposing upward force being exerted by rising demand in the developing countries. So, I see oil prices range-bound between, who knows, maybe $80-150/barrel, depending on many factors. While this is pricey by historical standards, I'm afraid it isn't high enough for alternatives to become viable for a very long time.



But in the meantime, there should be some very intersting vehicles, with all sorts of flavors of hybrids, lighter weight materials gaining greater favor, continued development of gas-saving technologies like cylinder deactivation, direct injection, cam-less valvetrains, and maybe even ethanol injection. Should be an exciting time to be a car junkie.
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#59

[quote name='flash' post='56728' date='Jul 25 2008, 04:04 PM']i grew up in the bay area,[/quote]

In what part of the Bay Area did you grow up? I grew up in San Rafael. Sure miss it...
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#60

fremont



the reason i brought up the burning of the forests was not to include the gunk they send up, but rather the oxygen they do not when it is all over - no trees no air
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