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wake up call
#21

better footage from hollywood - pretty hard to keep a chopper up in the air 24/7 to catch it when it breaks apart, but it is happening right now



the film started with a cartoon
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#22

It all comes down to save the human race..... trust me, the planet is fine.. once we are all washed away, drowned, starved to death, radiated to a crisp, or frozen, the earth will sigh a sigh of releaf and life without us will florish <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />. The earth does not need humans, we need the earth.



The earth is changing and we have based our economies and cities on the 'stable' eco system. With the change (whether human made or not), we are farming and living in the wrong places for the new eco system and the change is going to hurt economically and physically. This new eco system is inevitable, its how fast it is comming that counts and are we making it come faster and larger than expected.....



Note to self : Time to get those Mad-Max skills up to date. It could be a bumpy ride. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#23

DayDreamer's post reminds me of George Carlin's "The planet is fine, the people are f**ked" rant.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljNDbKpusT0
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#24

lol - perhaps it is in the end going to be mother nature's way of getting rid of an infestation - you can't keep crapping in the hallway very long before the landlord does something about it



so, if we want to live here much longer....................



but i love that people are talking about this
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#25

this ties in a bit with the debate on the "gas prices" thread, and a bit with this thread, and a bit with any of the threads

where the current state of our economy, the use of energy, the outlook on the not so distant future <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> and the politicians influence on such... from our old friend Lee :



Remember Lee Iacocca, the man who rescued Chrysler Corporation from it's death throes? He has a new book, and here are some excerpts. Lee Iacocca says:'Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder.We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, 'Stay the course'Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America , not the damned 'Titanic'. I'll give you a sound bite: 'Throw all the bums out!'You might think I'm getting senile, that I' ve gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up. I hardly recognize this country anymore. The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq , the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving 'pompoms' instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of the ' America ' my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have. The Biggest 'C' is Crisis!Leaders are made, not born. Leadership is forged in times of crisis. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory.Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down. On September 11, 2001, we needed a strong leader more than any other time in our history. We needed a steady hand to guide us out of the ashes. A Hell of a Mess So here's where we stand. W e're immersed in a bloody war with no plan for winning and no plan for leaving. We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country. We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia , while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs. Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy. Our schools are in trouble. Our borders are like sieves. The middle class is being squeezed every which way These are times that cry out for leadership.But when you look around, you've got to ask:'Where have all the leaders gone?' Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, omnipotence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo? We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened.Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina. Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm.Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again. Now, that's just crazy. Storms happen. Deal with it. Make a plan. Figure out what you're going to do the next time.Name me an industry leader who is thinking creatively about how we can restore our competitive edge in manufacturing. Who would have believed that there could ever be a time when 'Th e Big Three' referred to Japanese car companies? How did this happen, and more important, what are we going to do about it?



Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debit, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem.The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.I have news for the gang in Congress. We didn't elect you to sit on your asses and do nothing and remain silent while our democracy is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity. What is everybody so afraid of? That some bonehead on Fox News will call them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show so me spine for a change?Had Enough?



Hey, I'm not trying to be the voice of gloom and doom here. I'm trying to light a fire. I'm speaking out because I have hope I believe in America In my lifetime I'v e had the privilege of living through some of America 's greatest moments. I've also experienced some of our worst crises: the 'Great Depression', 'World War II', the 'Korean War', the 'Kennedy Assassination', the 'Vietnam War', the 1970's oil crisis, and the struggles of recent years culminating with 9/11. If I've learned one thing, it's this: 'You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. Whether it's building a better car or building a better future for our children, we all have a role to play. That's the challenge I'm raising in this book. It's a call to 'Action' for people who, like me, believe in America . It's not too late, but it's getting pretty close. So let' s shake off the crap and go to work. Let's tell 'em all we've had 'enough.'

Make a 'real contribution' by sending this to everyone you know and care about......our future is at stake!
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#26

Quote:comparing a firecracker to a nuclear bomb

Huh..? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> I can only guess that you missed the point.

If what Gore is saying is true, we should've seen an increase in CO2 soon after the start for the Industrial Revolution.
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#27

So, what all this means in the end is we must drive our cars a lot to use up the last of the oil so that we force the discovery of a new energy source and save the planet... (err... humans)



Mathematically Put :



drive 968 = good? Yes? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#28

My prediction.



As the planet becomes increasingly less hospitable to human life the wealthy countries will scream loudest, and do the most. We'll buy 'green' technology and entreprenuers will get rich. We'll put less CO, CO2, and other gasses identified as bad into the atmosphere and we'll feel better about it.



And it still won't make a damned bit of difference. I was in Mumbai earlier this year. If you think anyone there cares about global warming - there are people living in 4 ft X 4ft sections of overpasses. Google Earth Mumbai and check out the pictures. Unbelieveable poverty and squalor.



I am not arguing whether this is real or not. I am arguing that there are too many of us, and growing daily, to stop the impact that we have on the planet until we can't make it as a species. And if we do pull out a Music City Miracle and clean it up, then we'll get hit by an asteroid or the magnetic poles will reverse or ...



I'm with Jay - smart Monkeys don't have any special hold on the planet.



   
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#29

the analogy which i thought was obvious, seems to be missed - like a firecracker, the industrial revolution was a miniscule event compared to the nuclear bomb of what we are spewing today



and yes, we certainly have no hold on this planet, and yes, short of a nuclear holocaust, the planet will endure - however, if we do want to stick around for a while, we need to make changes - the things we are doing will result in an uninhabitable place for us in a very short time
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#30

[quote name='DayDreamer' post='55919' date='Jul 8 2008, 05:44 AM']drive 968 = good? Yes? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />[/quote]



Yes, I think driving a 968 is a good thing.

Okay, so the fuel economy of a 968 won't be as good as a hybrid. But it's a lot better than an SUV.

And I think driving an older car is better than continually buying new cars. It takes a lot of energy and resources to produce a vehicle. We should try and get the most out of vehicles that are already built.

As long as we drive responsibly, and avoid frivolous trips, I'm comfortable with the thought of driving a sportscar.



But perhaps just "going for a drive" will become a thing of the past?

And will motorsports become ecologically incorrect? I haven't done much research into the overall emissions of all forms of motorsport, but I suspect it's a relatively small proportion of the overall output. But can we justify having cars drive around and around just for our entertainment?

Don't get me wrong, I love motorsports. But just as I think the automobile has become an ecological pariah, so will motorsports be seen as an example of frivolous emissions.
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#31

re: analogy; Let me clarify... I'm not comparing two periods in time - I'm pointing out the start of an era that supposedly included a rise in CO2.
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#32

If you don't keep the crazys at bay.....The next thing you know..we'll be drinking flat soda! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



CO2 is AWESOME!
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#33

socal - i'm not sure what you are getting at



it did go up following the industrial revolution, but by a small amount compared to the current rise rate - there just weren't that many people generating it - it wasn't like every country was burning fossil fuels back then - the proportion of burning per capita was far below what it is now - the rapid rise rate began in about 1960, at about double that ever measured, and it's still climbing - as the population rises (now 3 times what it was in 1960 and 8 times what it was in 1800), so does the CO2 rise rate - more people, more fuel burned - more fuel burned, more CO2



it doesn't help that we are also destroying,at an alarming rate, the only thing that consumes CO2 and generates oxygen - pretty much shooting ourselves in the foot



but again, i'm not the expert (though i could put you in touch with a number of them), and this is not the place to get into detail (it would take up way too much space) - take a look at the data for yourself - it's easy to find - don't listen to political rhetoric from either side - just look at the data - it's incredibly easy to draw the conclusion that we are the cause, regardless of varying timeline predictions and agendas



the entire point of me starting this thread was to say that this film does a good job of distilling enough information into a format that makes the problem obvious to any rational thinker - it was to get people thinking about this, and doing some research for themselves - it was to get people moving - this is very scary stuff



but, i'm still looking forward to gondolas in new york
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#34

Nice lightning rod of a topic, Flash. It’s nice to see so many people voice their opinions, as opposed to the two-person back-and-forth we had going on the gas prices thread.



This is one of my favorite topics, but I’m going to try to summon the Herculean willpower to refrain from joining the debate over how much, if any, contribution mankind’s CO2 emissions are really making to the warming trend we’re in the midst of. Suffice it to say that the real truth probably lies somewhere between Jerry Falwell’s assertion that global warming is a myth, and Ted Turner’s prognostication that we will be reduced to cannibalism within 30 years as our planet turns into a raging ball of fire.



Instead, I’d like to say for the sake of argument that we are contributing in a big way to global warming, and focus on what, if anything, can be done about it. The huge challenge is that CO2, and other IR absorbers, are emitted from so many sources, the majority of which are things that are extremely difficult to do anything about. No matter how many wind farms or solar arrays the wealthier countries install, or how many Americans hang their clothes to dry rather than using their driers, the fact that China is bringing on line a new coal fired power plant every week, with countries like India, Russia, Brazil, and eventually others in Asia and South America, and ultimately Africa and the Middle East, likely to follow suit, seems to make the efforts of the most vocal global warming crusaders pretty futile.



And I reject the tired notion that mankind’s effort to improve our collective quality of life through technological progress and industrialization is somehow evil. There’s nothing more humane than providing the inhabitants of this planet with the warmth, comfort, and convenience that affordable electricity provides. The fact that by a huge margin, the burning of fossil fuels is the cheapest way to generate this vital commodity, means that increasing levels of CO2 in our atmosphere are pretty much a fact of life.



But let’s say we miraculously come to a global agreement, INCLUDING the developing countries, to convert to non-fossil fuel based electricity generation and transportation (though I’d like to see someone try to figure out how to run a 747 on a lithium ion battery). Doing this is so contrary to natural market forces that it will require massive amounts of money (many trillions of dollars from the reports I’ve seen) in the form of subsidies. Where’s all this money going to come from? And I don’t buy (excuse the pun) into the idea that spending this money now will somehow pay off in the long run, because there are likely as many beneficiaries from a warming world as there are victims. Most of the governments of the world’s wealthier nations are already deep in debt, thanks to the ever-pervasive notion that it’s the role of government to provide for peoples’ every conceivable need (and our own misguided and hugely expensive invasion of Iraq hasn’t helped – see, I’m trying to stay politically balanced here). I just don’t see how we could pull this off, without printing massive amounts of currency, which, even if it saves us from the evils of CO2, would leave us with a world not worth living in.



Personally, I agree with John Stossel that, given the uncertainties of the magnitude of mankind’s contribution to global warming, our resources would be better spent continuing to carefully monitor global temperature, atmospheric CO2 concentration, sea levels, etc., and then plan for dealing with the consequences of the present warming trend, assuming it continues. I know that sounds somewhat defeatist, but I’m afraid it’s simply based in realism. I lose a lot more sleep over the temperature of my 968’s coolant than that of our planet. But then, I’ve always been a glass-half-full kind of guy (although the water in the glass is getting pretty darn dirty, with my head being stuck so far in the sand and all…)
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#35

[quote name='flash' post='55992' date='Jul 8 2008, 03:30 PM']the entire point of me starting this thread ... (snip) .... it was to get people thinking about this, and doing some research for themselves - it was to get people moving[/quote]

Here are a couple of things to consider:

1. Doomed to a fatal delusion over climate change, July 09, 2008

quote: 'So almost everything depends on China and India copying us. But the chances of that? A big, round zero. A year ago China released its own global warming strategy -- its own Garnaut report -- which bluntly refused to cut its total emissions. Said Ma Kai, head of China's powerful State Council: "China does not commit to any quantified emissions-reduction commitments . . . our efforts to fight climate change must not come at the expense of economic growth." '

On India: 'The plan's authors, the Prime Minister's Council on Climate Change, said India would rather save its people from poverty than global warming, and would not cut growth to cut gases. "It is obvious that India needs to substantially increase its per capita energy consumption to provide a minimally acceptable level of wellbeing to its people." '



2. This science historian explores the question of denial, why do some people deny the evidence, and among other things explains which decade the evidence started to surface. Long (58 minutes) but well worth the research. The American Denial of Global Warming



Roland
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#36

also.... don't forget about the massive amounts of prehistoric methane gas stored in the melting permafrost.... Co2 emmisions will be a pimple on a mammoths butt compared to the damage a methane rich atmosphere will do to our cars... (and lungs).
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#37

obviously man has had a profound impact on global warming - the extent is in debate, as are predictions and remedies, but the data is undeniable - lol - even bush has finally stopped denying it - one by one all of the camps are coming around - that's a good thing



the issue of china and their massive coal stores is a serious one - but, as the largest contributor to the problem on the planet, does that mean that because the neighbor is trashing the place, that we should?



the economics indeed play a large role, but they don't have to - it is only a problem as long as it is on a developmental scale - a mass production scale would make an alternative source just as economical - it's just a big hump to get over, and getting people to change is difficult at best



but getting people to talk about it is the start - this has been fun
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#38

Flash: It's good to bring awareness to a topic such as GW. However I guess what I found a little odd is the fact that you're putting a lot of weight into a controversial movie that is said [by professionals in the field] to have several inaccuracies. I've seen a few documentaries that specifically mention Al Gore and his alarmist [sky is falling] message.

I hope you've also taken a look at what both camps have to say...
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#39

[quote name='S_Cal968' post='56090' date='Jul 9 2008, 08:26 PM']Flash: It's good to bring awareness to a topic such as GW. However I guess what I found a little odd is the fact that you're putting a lot of weight into a controversial movie that is said [by professionals in the field] to have several inaccuracies. I've seen a few documentaries that specifically mention Al Gore and his alarmist [sky is falling] message.

I hope you've also taken a look at what both camps have to say...[/quote]

I must say I agree that this notion of overwhelming consensus is overstated. Check out "Unstoppable Global Warming(Every 1500 Years)" by S. Fred Singer. Even if you don't agree with a word of what he says in the book, it has 499 footnotes citing studies which convincingly dispute the argument that anthropogenic CO2 emission is responsible for the current warming trend, which started at the conclusion of the Little Ice Age in around 1850, and has seen the 1930s, not the 1990s, and certainly not the present decade, as the warmest on record.



Also, read the reviews on Amazon of any book dealing in any manner with GW, and you'll find umpteen exceedingly well-reasoned opinions on both sides of the debate.



I'm not saying the position of the Al Gores, Ted Turners, RFK Jr's, etc., may not in fact be correct, but I think it would be the height of foolishness to plunge headlong into a radical retooling of the world's energy production, at the cost of trillions of dollars, over something with so much uncertainty. My experience is that it's exceedingly rare for the most extreme position in any debate to be correct, and doomsayers, in particular, have an abysmal track record.



But it doesn't matter anyway, because as 968Syncro points out, there isn't a snowball's chance in Ted Turner's worst nightmare that the world's nations are going to come to an agreement with any kind of teeth that will bring about any meaningful reduction in CO2 levels in the atmosphere. So, as I said, I think it would be much more practical to put our research dollars into methods for coping with significant climate change (if it in fact happens), than going through an exercise of herding cats to try to prevent it.
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#40

[quote name='flash' post='56037' date='Jul 9 2008, 07:58 AM']the issue of china and their massive coal stores is a serious one - but, as the largest contributor to the problem on the planet, does that mean that because the neighbor is trashing the place, that we should?[/quote]



Flash,



I believe China has in 2008 caught the US in total CO2 emissions (though they're still obviously far behind in emissions per capita), and will leave us in the dust very soon. I agree that somebody else trashing the planet is no excuse for us to do the same. It just seems pretty futile, using your analogy, to keep picking up the Cheeto's you drop in the hallway, when your neighbor is dumping wheelbarrowfulls of dung. Not only that, but more are moving in, who are doing the same.



Interesting topic, though. It's great how everybody has again kept the discussion of such a divisive topic so civil.
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