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Upgraded connection rod recommendations
#1

I know this has been talked about in other threads, but they are scattered enough that a search was frustrating enough to prompt me to start a new one that will hopefully consolidate the topic. What started as a "simple" head refresh/leak fixing project has mushroomed into a full-blown engine rebuild, and "while I'm in there" I'd like to go ahead and upgrade my connecting rods, since I undoubtedly have the early rods. What do people recommend as a suitable upgrade? The later stock 968 rods are an obvious choice, but I'm sure they're pretty pricey. Jfrahm mentioned that a set of forged RARST rods can be had for $75, and I think he meant for the whole set, which seems incredibly cheap. Even $75 each would border on the too-good-to-be-true.



I plan to heavily track my car, so it will see lots of trips to the redline, and I will likely add some sort of forced induction down the road, so I need something that will stand up to some fairly severe use. Are the RARST rods (I've never heard of that brand) a good choice? I've heard 951 rods are also good. And I know Pauter is well known to make a good product. Thanks.
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#2

Well, I've done a bit of searching on this, and the information out there is sketchy at best, but there seems to be some consensus that the 951 rods are a decent bet. Does anybody know how they compare to the later 968 rods? Or is there so much variation and uncertainty as to the nature of 951 rods from year to year that there isn't a clear answer?



With all the superchargers (ten, at least, I suppose) that have been sold by now, there must have been a few poeple out there who have upgraded their connecting rods. Of those who have done this, what type have you gone with?



Thanks.
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#3

have you called pete about this yet?
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#4

in prep for the supercharger, connecting rods never crossed my mind; the head gasket was my worry.



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#5

There certainly crossed my mind as I am doing a refresh. Be aware there are a few sets of used rods for the 968 out there at the present that are the OLD rods without the reinforcement. I purchased and subsequently returned such a set.
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#6

Flash,



I was planning to call Pete, but I wanted to do some homework first.



bva,



It's the combination of the possibility of adding forced induction in the future, and the fact that I plan to track the car A LOT when I get it all back together, that's making me think about upgrading the rods. Also, since I'm pulling the head, the oil pan (to replace the gasket), replacing the rear meain seal, and needing to fix a major gash in the firewall, it's not a big leap to pull the pistons and replace the rods. I have a feeling I would have regretted it if I didn't go ahead and do it, given that my engine will soon be in pieces and out of the car. But if someone wants to talk me out of it, I'm all ears <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



DaveN,



Yes, I read about your experience. I'm glad you were able to return them. How were you able to determine that they were the old style 968 rods? The difference seems to be fairly subtle, visually.
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#7

From the part number and some forum hopping to confirm those numbers. Also, there is a reinforcement at the rod shoulder where it connects to the lower end on the new rods and just a straight "butt joint" on the older rods.
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#8

Dave,



So, have you made a decision as to what type of rods you're planning to use?
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#9

Think I ran out of money for new rods <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Didn't plan on another 1,400.00 for rods, was just hoping to find a set of used ones. We will inspect the old ones and run with them. I don't red-line (much <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> or track the car.
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#10

I like wossner, or pauter. Depends on your desired outcome. Wossner will fab them to whatever spec you want. IIRC. 1400?? I dont think mine were that much. IIRC pistons, and rods were 2kish. Ive heard good things about carillo too.
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#11

Ouch! A $1400 outlay could significantly dampen my enthusiasm for this as well. I never plan to go with a monster horsepower boost - I would be happy with 300 hp at the flywheel - 350 would have me doing cartwheels. I am concerned about the fact that the car is going to see a lot of track use, though.



Dave,



So, you weren't able to find a set of used ones? How safe do you think used ones would be? Thanks.
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#12

Cloud: Theyre about 1k typically for a set. http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/LR-PL036.html
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#13

I just realized I called them "connection rods" in the title of the thread... I wonder if that left a few people scratching their heads.



Monstrous,



I looked at the link to the Wossner rods on Lindsey Racing's site, and it doesn't give any kind of description of them, other than to say they're a direct replacement of stock 944/968 rods. Are you sure they're forged? They do look nice, but I have to wonder, for a thousand bucks for the rods, plus however much it's going to cost to get everything balanced, the cost of the rod replacement is starting to get within striking distance of what a used 968 engine probably costs (OK, probably not really that close, but a significant percentage, anyway). So, I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth it, given that my engine is never going to produce mega-power. I'll definitely give Pete a call and talk it over with him. Thanks.
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#14

All wossner rods are forged AFAIK. Im sure Pete has a solution. For your application, any forged rod should work. It gets cheaper even, wossner isnt really cheap. Personally I wouldnt run any boost without forged rods, but thats just me. Stock are fine for low boost pressures.....with proper tuning. Still though, the 968 rods have been known to be a weak point.
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#15

The aftermarket rods are nice, but at the moderate power levels we are seeing the expense might not be warranted. Aftermarket rods are generally lighter and that'd be a nice benefit if you are looking for every last scrap of power or if you are into having talking points about your build.



All 951 rods are fine, forged or the later (possibly sintered, possibly forged but a different design) rods. The early forged 944 rods are good too (and might in fact be the same rod as the late 951 rod.) The stronger 968 2R rods are probably fine too but I am unaware of any high HP builds on them. I do not know how strong the 944S2 rods are but as they are not common I would not bother with them. The 1989 944NA 2.7L might use the same rod as the S2, but you don't want any 944NA rod other than the early forged rods so ignore those as well.



The debate rages on as to what rods ended up in what engines. The common wisdom was that the forged 951 rods were only found in the 1986 engines but have been reported in later 951 engines as recent as 1989. Part numbers suggest the late 951 rod is the strong early 944 forged rod.



The story also goes that the forged 944 rod only came in 1983 and some 1984 engines but I got a set out of an 86. Some say the changeover actually came in or after 1986. These early forged 944 rods are generally quite inexpensive used, I think the set I pointed out as being FS on Pelican were $75 including pistons. They are nice. Some say the 951 rods are better though. I have no idea. Some feel the 'RARST' part number suffix only appears on forged rods but I think that might not be true. The part number should tell you if you have something good or not.



My understanding of the part numbers follows:



Early 944 rod - 944.103.101.3 RARST



Early 944 Turbo - 944.103.110.0 RARST (some say these are the best.)



Late 944 Turbo - 944.103.101.3 (or 3R or 3RARST)



[The late turbo (cast, sintered or forged depending on who you ask) rod seems to have the same part number as the early 944 forged rod.]



Cast 944 rods, unsuitable for higher HP applications:



944.103.001.0

944.103.008.0



Part numbers ending in 1R or 1RARST I suggest avoiding.



Used rods should be checked for cracks and straightness and roundness of the big end.

Get new rod bolts and nuts. GET NEW RODS BOLTS AND NUTS.

q: Should I replace the rod bolts and get new nuts? a: Yes.



If you are just doing rod bearings you can probably get away with only replacing the rod nuts but with used rods you have no idea how many cycles the bolts have seen. They might be good for one more stretch, or they might decide to pop. Think of rod and main bolts as really stiff brittle springs that you stretch to hold your assembly together. You hold it by stretching the bolt just enough to really clamp the assembly together but not stretching it to the point the bolt gets weak or breaks. Sometimes when you torque one of these it will suddenly get easier to turn and the torque will drop or level off. That means the fastener has gotten weak and is ruined. It'll break in a second. Instead of cursing your luck in this case, thank the fastener for letting you know it needed to be replaced instead of snapping at 7k RPMs.



What I think might be better advice for a street engine is to just run what you got and see how it goes. A lot of stuff can go wrong in a rebuild. Your engine was built by highly trained professionals in a very clean environment and has worked for many years afterward. Why spend the money to possibly end up with an engine that is not as well screwed together? To replace a rod that might never bend or break? Tough call. If you are going racing, then yeah spend the money. Race weekends are expensive.



-Joel.
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#16

Joel,



Thanks for the detailed response; this will help with my decision. My plan is to use the car primarily as a track car; I don't drive it much on the street as it is, and will do so even less when I get done with all the suspension mods and such. Initially I will use it for track days, but hopefully will be doing some club racing. So, the engine will see a lot of high rpm, full throttle use. But if I ever add forced induction, it will probably be pretty mild boost, primarily because of the complication and expense of the high boost set-ups.



With this description, if it were your car, what would you do? Thanks.
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#17

I, being me, would scrounge up a set of early turbo rods, measure and check them carefully myself and run them with new bolts. If any of them seem like they might have had a spun bearing or other issues I would replace that rod with a matching used rod. I'd balance them and match the weights. This might cost me a few hours and $400 including the new bolts.



If you have to pay someone for inspection and whatnot, you might be better off getting a set of forged aftermarket rods for $950 or so that should be good to go out of the box.



Or, maybe it'd be smarter to just source a late 968 engine that is already in one piece, maybe from a tippy with low miles or the like. Maybe a short block from a timing belt or variocam disaster motor. Change the rod bearings, brace the oil pickup tube, check out the top end (maybe a cam chain and ramps, maybe some valve stem seals) and go racing. I'd prefer a used street shortblock with 75K on it to a re-ringed 150K short block done up by an average shop every day of the week.



Just MHO and I am sure others will disagree.

-Joel.
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#18

FWIW I threw out the 1,400.00 price for con rods because of where I live. I have to Add 12% taxes and if the *&$%^ company will only use UPS then I have to add another 100.00 for shipping and brokerage!

I's sure I have forged 1R rods but will wait and see when all is apart. Right now I'm stuggling with 4 flange bolts trying to get the new RSB exhaust on. They are siezed and I don't have a cutting torch plus the top 2 are a royal pain to reach in that tunnel. I don' t have a lift so removing the lower brace, pan and collector nuts from the header is also a pain. Oh well, off to build my brake bleeder then for the new SS hoses.
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#19

Yeah 951 rods would be least expensive route. My recommendation would be wossner, but 951 rods work. Matter of fact, I got 2 spare 951 rods off of a 86' on the shelf right now. Ill never use them. If one of you guys wanted them, Id give em to you for like 50 bucks, plus shipping. Then youd need to source two more. Just about any Porsche salvage yard probably has a pile of em. 951 rods are pretty common, ebay has one right now I think. I bet 944online has sets, or singles used. That would make your upgrade to forged rods pretty cost effective. PM me if you want. Part# 944.103.110.0RARST Let me know



edit: Ian has a set of em for 100 bucks. Not sure year, or part numbers he has. http://944online.com/cgi-bin/ASI_Store.c...944Garage+ I see he wants 25 bucks each too, Id go even lower if one of you wanted, they just take up space for me. Considering I have 6 total.
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#20

Monstrous,



Thanks very much for the offer, and for the research. Another example of what a great community we have. If you don't mind, let me bounce these options off Pete from RS Barn. I don't know much about this stuff, so I have to say I'm a tad concerned about buying used connecting rods. I'm sure if given a clean bill of health via the right inspection method, they'll be fine. The price is definitely right.



If you've ever seen the show "Pawn Stars" on the History Channel, I feel a little like the owner of the pawn shop when somebody comes in with something intriguing, and he tells the seller, " That looks interesting, but I don't know much about it, so let me call my buddy _____ who knows everything there is to know about these things, and we'll see if we can make a deal."



Edit: Just wondering: Do we know for a fact the the 968 rods (at least the early ones) are cast, as opposed to forged? I thought the issue with the early 968 rods was the they were too narrow down at the big end; not beefy enough, in other words.
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