[Cloud9...68]

Yes, electric cars would seem to make a lot of sense for a lot of people - I've recommended them to several people myself, but so far, none of them has taken my advice. Despite the fact that they're still heavily subsidized, and that they get a significant break in the fact that their owners get to use the roads without paying the gasoline tax that funds them, they're having a lot of trouble gaining any traction in the marketplace. I guess that's due to a combination of several factors. Tesla's success is likely due largely to its cool factor - it's a beautiful car, equally beautifully executed. As the saying goes, the rich are different from you and me, and to someone with the means, buying a Tesla makes a very flattering statement.



Personally, I think more effort should be put into converting large vehicles like trucks and buses to run on natural gas, and encouraging the use of more diesel for conventional cars, as it looks like it's going to take quite awhile for electric cars to have much of an impact.

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[flash]

i don't understand the idea that the tesla is some expensive car. it's averagely priced. maybe it's a luxury for oklahoma, but half of the country's population is in areas where such a car price is normal. in fact, at only $70k it's a bit low for the more populated areas, where $90k is commonplace. your basic s class benz is that much, and cost a whole lot more to operate. after tax credits, the model S is about $60k. that's actually low for any decent 4 door mid size sedan



http://www.cars.com/...srp&sf1Dir=DESC



natural gas would be fine, as long as it didn't come from fracking. the ammonia released in the extraction process is worse for the environment than burning coal. the gas companies have done a decent job though of fooling the public on that one, preying on the uneducated and poor.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1410035827' post='161947']

i don't understand the idea that the tesla is some expensive car. it's averagely priced.

[/quote]



Wow. Just wow. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were a died-in-the-wool, card-carrying Republican, lol.

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[flash]

lol - no - just a realist. that's why i put up the link. you have to scroll down quite a bit to get down to the price of the tesla. that's just average cars too. it doesn't even cover the better versions of those cars. the starting price of any decent 4 door sedan is over $50k. anything else is a cracker box. that's just the way it is. i live in a basic middle class neighborhood of 314 homes, ranging in size from 2100 to 3300 sq ft, on lots ranging from 6000 to 13000 sq ft. nothing out of the ordinary. it's your basic 19 shades of beige kind of place. there are 3 teslas here. there are at least 30 c class mercedes, a couple dozen 5 and 7 series bmws, a half dozen new 911s, at least 50 upper end SUVs, and quite a few more expensive cars. i look at this as really a swathe down the middle. i would have to drive a good distance to get into a neighborhood that had much less, but not far to get into a neighborhood that has a lot more. $70k for a car is pretty much within the average guy's budget these days, especially when you factor in the lower operating cost (about 1/4 that of a 30mpg gas car) and tax credits. over a 10 year run, it's like buying a $40k car.



do i think cars have gotten ridiculously expensive? yes, for what they are. that doesn't change the fact that they are what they are. if you want quality, you have to pay.

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[ds968]

Regardless of price, anyone that buys a brand new car is foolish - IMHO ( as opposed to buying a one or two year old car, where you can still benefit from the warranty for a couple more years to come ..if that's what you're concerned about.. ) . The first year's depreciation in market value , for 99% cars out there , is absurdly high so why would someone not see any problem just throwing away money like that ? Even if you buy a car with absolutely no intention to re-sell it, on principle alone of having your car drop by 10 or 20 or 30 percent in just a few months after you leave the dealer's lot , has to bug the heck out of you...wouldn't it ?

Talking about purchasing, not leasing ..that's a whole different Oprah :-)

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[flash]

having done the CPO thing, and seen the warranty run out, i can say that while you don't suffer the amount of depreciation, you also don't get the number of years of cost free driving.



also, the tax advantages of a new car far outweigh that of a used car, if you start with a lease, and then buy it, which is what we have done and are planning to do again. that way, you get the long term of warranty, and the cost is mitigated.

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[Chris Vais]

Well, I got to check out a fellow winemakers new Tesla S sedan. The first thing that struck me was the interior is like the glass cockpit you see in current new aircraft. Looking at all of the information available to you, I wonder how one avoids becoming a "distracted" driver. It is like driving a big iPad. You can run your entire business form this car and probably your entire life. About the only thing it won't do is fix your dinner, but it will call home and turn on the oven.



My driving impression: acceleration is remarkable, handling is very good, but there are far better handling large sedans out there for about the same money or less. Would I by one, probably not, I don't see the advantage. You can either burn gasoline to power your car or you can burn coal, fuel oil, jet fuel, or natural gas to generate electricity to charge the batteries in the car, so I don't see it as the answer to global warming.



My winemaker friend drives his new Tesla up to the local junior college to recharge as they have a recharge station. Says he doesn't want to run up his electric bill at home.

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[flash]

it takes a lot less of the fuels you list to generate the electricity to run the car the same distance as gasoline would. it's just that much more efficient. that being said, there are other downsides that exceed the mere quantity if the fuel used is something ugly like coal or natural gas from fracking.



the real issue is the oil lobbies. they fight anything and everything that could actually work. until we get rid of that, and control external influence, it will be a very long road toward sensible choices.



p.s. - an average house has enough roof surface to generate enough power to not only run the house, but also to charge the car.

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[Cloud9...68]

Am I the only one who thinks it would be way cool if someone dropped a current-generation small block, or maybe an AMG V8, into that thing? Now that would be a sweet ride. Ooh, I can hear environmentalists' heads exploding as I type this blasphemy, lol. Where's that "evil grin" emoticon...?

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[Chris Vais]

I'm looking at putting solar panels on my roof. The two biggest sections of the roof face either due east or due west so the alignment is ideal in terms of maximum exposure.



Back on track, I understand a hydrogen powered car will shortly become available. Don't recall the maker, but I do recall they BMW had developed something they called the Hydrogen 7.



If I had a short local commute I would definitely be looking at some sort of electric car.

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[Chris Vais]

Cloud, I'd like to fit one with a sound generator, say from a v-12 Ferrari that would correspond to the acceleration or de-acceleration of the car with appropriate sounding upshifts and downshifts. The Tesla is a very quiet car. No sound other than the sound of the tires rolling on pavement.

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[Cloud9...68]

Chris,



Agreed, a V12 would be a good bet as well.



As far as hydrogen, no way, no how, zero chance of hydrogen powered cars going beyond the "demonstration" stage in this century. The problems are staggering, starting with the issue of where the hydrogen comes from. It doesn't exist in nature; >95% of the hydrogen in use today is extracted from hydrocarbon sources like natural gas, The process releases, you guessed it, CO2, so there's no advantage of burning hydrogen is a car vs. just burning the natural gas. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Gaseous fuels in general are a lousy choice for standard-sized automobiles. Large vehicles like buses and trucks, maybe, but even there, hydrogen makes zero sense. Trust me on this.

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[Rap]

Not all of us live where solar panels make sense!

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[flash]

we already have hydrogen powered cars, and hydrogen stations up and down the coast. i see the cars every once in a while. one of the development companies working on it is about 5 miles from me. granted, it is only a pilot program, but it could work. the issues have largely been storage and transport. i don't know that they will ever resolve those.



biofuels are the next step. the problem will be convincing the government to stay out of it and not use corn to generate it. we can generate it from our garbage. we already have the infrastructure in place to do it too. it would only require some retasking. the garbage trucks would pick it up and take it to the distillery. the gas stations would pump alcohol instead of gasoline. cars as built today could be converted. everything else would stay the same.



however, neither of the above resolve the issue of emissions as well as we need. we need to build giant solar farms. we have millions of acres of desolate land that see enough sun to provide all of the power we need.



solar panels make sense anywhere there is sunshine. the efficiency may not be as high as say in arizona, but they will work on the north pole.

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[Rap]

Some of us live in areas where there can be more cloudy than sunny days

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[flash]

solar works on cloudy days too. common misconception.



basically, it works any time there is sunlight, clouded or not. the efficiency and output go down when it's not as bright, but it still works, and a LOT better than people think. in fact, on a partly cloudy day you can actually EXCEED the panel's capacity, and output more than a bright sunny day, due to the magnification from the moisture in the air.



the key thing to remember is that one cloudy day really means nothing. it's the number of hours of sun over a year, and the angle of that sun.



   

   



in this day and age, if you are planning to stay in your home, you're pretty much being an idiot if you don't add solar. if you are planning to leave, then it may not make sense. there are a lot of plans out there, and each situation is different. but, the reality is that solar will save you money - period. it just depends on the situation as to how much, and when the ROI is for you.



so, it is very easy for the tesla (see how i got back on topic?) can actually be a lot less expensive to operate, as the power to feed it, which is already way less than gasoline, could be free. a car that costs nothing to operate??? who wants that?

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[type968]

So what do folks think of solar city, i.e. lease the panels and they lease your roof kinda deal, so you just get a break on the up front costs and a cut of the generation savings.



I always toyed with the idea of buying a large shed and making it a small powered building with solar as it's primary power and converting it to a garden office.

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[flash]

i just went through this with them. they are the largest company out there. they are taking advantage of the tax breaks and really making a killing putting systems on roof tops across the country.



you really have to look closely at things though, to see which plan works for you (PPA vs lease, versus prepay, versus purchase). you get the up front savings with a PPA or lease, but you are stuck with a contract that may or may not be a good thing if you plan to sell.



they really mark up the gear, and use lower quality components. this isn't a big deal if you go the PPA or lease route, but if you go the purchase route, warranty or not, you may not be doing the best you can for the dollar.



my concern is that warranties may not mean anything if these companies fail. the tax credits, which are set to expire in 2016, will disappear if the republicans get back into power. that means that the companies out there selling, and making the profit from taking your tax credit, won't be able to do that anymore, and they will likely fold.



in the end, because we only plan to be here 3 years, and it was going to require $2700 in roof work, and a new power panel that was going to cost me another $2k, my savings was eaten up on a PPA or lease, and we did not want to purchase for this house. so, we are passing at this time.



however, in the new house we plan to build, it will definitely have solar, but likely a purchased built in panel array, and not something through a solar reseller.

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[williamoss]

So what happens if one wants to drive from Portland to say Seattle which is about 270 miles, but you get stuck in a big traffic jam, lets say an accident. And then sitting on the highway you run out of charge and you break down causing another gigantic traffic jam. Until they get a whole lot more distance and time out of a battery I can not see anyone actually buying these kind of cars.

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[schwarz968]

Why pick on republicans? The dems killed all sorts of credits but I'm gonna stay off politics. So far I like everyone here and wanna keep it that way. :-)

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