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Sunroof Motor Torque
#1

From the Clark's Garage online repair manual for 944's (with which 968's share sunroof parts amongst others) "This is a very common problem area. Over time, the motor slip clutch torque tends to increase." It is this increase in torque that causes the sunroof gears to strip. The Clark's Garage repair pages for the sunroof can be found here : Clark's Garage Sunroof Troubleshooting and are comprehensive for problem solving. This procedure is cobbled together from information found there.



What you'll need do to this :



- A torque wrench capable of very low settings (5 NM or 3.7 Ft-Lbs.)

- A 21mm deep socket for the torque wrench

- A 13mm 'slimline' style wrench

- Another 13mm wrench or socket



This is the procedure :



1. Lower your sunroof to the closed position. This is the position where the sunroof is held in place against the roof of the car.



2. Remove the carpet cover from the drivers side wall under the rear hatch glass. This piece is held on with one snap at the rear, four somewhat fragile plastic plugs along the top, and is glued to the wheel well. It's not necessary to remove the glued part to expose the sunroof motor. It is not necessary to remove the plastic cover that's revealled underneath, as the nuts you'll need are visible through a round hole. What you should see should match what's in the owner's manual directions for manual sunroof operation.



3. Check the current torque setting : the factory spec is 6 NM +/- 0.5, Clark's page recommends 5 NM, choose a setting you're comfortable with and use the 21mm deep socket and your torque wrench on the large nut you found under the carpet. Pulling the handle of the torque wrench towards the rear of the car will slowly raise the sunroof. It should take less than 6.5 NM to move the large nut. If it does take less, stop here as you don't need to adjust anything.



4. Adjust the torque : To adjust the torque you'll need to loosen the two 13mm nuts on top of the 21mm bolt. The outer nut is (obviously) holding the inner nut in place. Use a slimline-style wrench to hold the inner 13mm nut in place and your other 13mm wrench (or socket) to turn the outer one. Make the adjustment to the inner 13mm nut, tighten the outer 13mm nut and check the new torque against the 21mm nut.



It takes a lot of wrenching to fully raise the sunroof, so you shouldn't hit the upper limit while testing. If you do simply change direction, pushing the wrench towards the front of the car, to lower the roof. The sunroof will operate normally wherever the arms are posiitoned once you are done : from released to closed with the key in the ACC position, and from closed to open in the RUN position. To make adjustments to the travel of the sunroof arms requires adjustments to the gears or the micro-switches, which is covered in the Clark's Garage link above.



That's it. I wish I'd done that three years ago, before I busted my sunroof gears and had to do it anyway. I'm not certain about the naming of the 'slimline-style' wrench. That's what Snap-On Web Page called theirs, I actually used a flat-piece-of-metal disposable wrenches in the correct size that I had lying around. If you have a better equipped workshop than mine you may have another means turning one nut while holding another.
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#2

Nice writeup. Good thing to archive in the DIY section.
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#3

Thanks for the writeup. Very timely, as I just ordered a pair of new gears and will be doing this job shortly. Any recommendations for an appropriate torque wrench? I imagine something that accurate would be expensive, no?
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#4

[quote name='mitch968' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:34 AM']Thanks for the writeup.  Very timely, as I just ordered a pair of new gears and will be doing this job shortly.  Any recommendations for an appropriate torque wrench?  I imagine something that accurate would be expensive, no?

[right][post="7302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



My preference is for Sears tools, here's their wrench at $160 : Low Torque Wrench. To tell the truth I did mine by feel. My torque wrench only goes down to 20NM, so I verified that much and then loosened the motor by a half turn on the adjusting bolt. The cheap choice would me something like this from Harborfreight though I'm not sure where I'd find a 21mm deep socket for a 1/4" drive.



The only bit of the Clark's page I had real trouble with were his instructions on how to mark the sunroof arm positions when both are busted. I figured that the closed/locked position was the one that was being determined by microswitch I & II, so I manually moved the mechanism to a point between switch I & II, then placed the sunroof on the car, fit the lifting arms both into the roof and the mechanism, and bolted them in place. That appears to have worked.
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#5

Quote:4. Adjust the torque : To adjust the torque you'll need to loosen the two 13mm nuts on top of the 21mm bolt. The outer nut is (obviously) holding the inner nut in place. Use a slimline-style wrench to hold the inner 13mm nut in place and your other 13mm wrench (or socket) to turn the outer one. Make the adjustment to the inner 13mm nut, tighten the outer 13mm nut and check the new torque against the 21mm nut.

I started the job late this afternoon, but wasn't able to find a wrench thin enough to hold the inner 13mm nut. I went to Sears, but they didn't have any really thin wrenches. Any ideas where I can likely get one (is there a common name for this kind of wrench?), or something else I could use to hold it? I'm going to try adjusting the torque by feel, since that's a really low torque value to measure accurately anyway. The torque feels a bit high, and I would guess it should probably be decreased, since both of my gears were stripped. I figure I'll back the bolt out a half turn at a time until it seems to be ok. If I go too low, I'll just bump it back up until the roof operates properly.
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#6

....found a wrench that works (at REI surprisingly):

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDis...8000&langId=-1&



I finished the job successfully without stripping the new gears. I was being extra cautious as I didn't have any spares on hand. I was able to significantly reduce the torque, so I'm guessing that high torque could have definitely been a factor in the gear failure.



Question: How smoothly should the sunroof lift and lower? Mine lifts smoothly, but is just a little bit jittery on the way down. It's always been like this on my car, but I just want to know if it's normal or if there's something that should be lubed or adjusted.



Thanks for the DIY...it was very helpful.
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#7

Here's my rather lengthy post on sunroof adjustment after I replaced 2 sets in 2 cars (and stripped a brand new set of gears!)



BTW - buy a spare or 2 if you are doing this the first time - skip eBay, just buy the gears from Paragon - best deal around at $7.05 each



Well here’s a low down and maybe this will save some headaches (this was written for 944's but the mechanism should be the same for 968)



1. From what I can tell, after looking at the “old” style mechanism and then the “post 86” style, both units seem to have similar problems.



2. All the articles talk about limit switch adjustment, cams, levers, etc. possibly going out of adjustment with time, but the real culprit appears to be the SLIP CLUTCH that is common to both systems.



3. From what I can deduce, there’s an easy way to narrow down the source of the problem.



a. Carefully depress the switch to take the roof OFF the car (key position #1 on post 86 cars).

b. Get into the back seat (parking brake on and out of gear!) Then switch the ignition to position #2 to operate the TILT mechanism while DEPRESSING THE CENTER SWITCH ABOVE THE MIRROR – where the “tab” on the roof panel usually presses on a hidden switch. If the gears are not badly stripped, you can either see the arms moving in / out or at least hear the drive mechanism run to the limits and stop.

c. If the motor just keeps running, then the limit switch (one is for roof UP) the other for roof (locked closed) is out of adjustment.



4. If the roof arm (one or both) operate normally, then it’s probably the SLIP CLUTCH is out of adjustment. The slip clutch really only comes into play when you depress the console switch to REMOVE the roof panel. What happens is that the arms travel back farther than in “tilt” mode until they are flush with the little gearbox.



a. The operating logic is that the arms move back into the gearbox and the Slip Clutch is supposed to “limit” any further movement! There is no “limit switch” to stop the arms – the system depends on the slip clutch, and if that fails then the PLASTIC GEARS strip!



In any event, you will have to get into the headliner to change those PLASTIC GEARS. Instead of removing the headliner however, all you really need to do is to remove the PANEL that covers the drive mechanism. Then instead of taking off the trim etc (it’s glued on, and I hate having to re-stretch and try to get it all to fit without wrinkling) – just use scissors and cut an “L” to expose the gearbox and tuck the material back underneath. When you replace the rigid panel, it all gets hidden anyway!



In the “tilt” mode, the aluminum raising arms on my car showed about 3 gear teeth clear of the gearbox. That way it engaged the roof panel receptacle almost perfectly to bring the panel flush with the roof.



The trickiest part is adjusting the SLIP CLUTCH torque – the manual calls for 6Nm +/- ½ but that is so low you might as well guess at a setting that just raises and lowers the roof to lock it down plus a smidgen more. Anything more and the plastic gears are going to take a beating when you retract the arms for “panel removal” mode.



BTW, the 13mm locking nut to adjust the torque setting on the SLIP CLUTCH is very thin – too slim for normal wrenches. Bike tools should fit. In any event, back it off a bit to save those gears!

If your roof works fine in Switch Pos #2 (goes up and down, and locks) but does NOTHING in Switch Pos #1, then it's probably the microswitch just above the rear view mirror. If you look at the front of the sunroof from inside the car, both ends have a "over center catch", while the "middle" only has a "tab". That tab depresses a microswitch that indicates whether the roof panel is "on or off" the car. If there is no pressure on the pad (switch out of adjustment for example), the logic is that the roof panel is removed and the sunroof drive mechanism will not get any power. This is to prevent you from extending the lifting arms when there is no panel present.



Try pushing "UP" a bit on that center tab while depressing the sunroof switch (try both ways) while the switch is in Pos #1. If the arms release the roof panel, it's an easy adjustment to re-engage that switch.



One way to test this - but you better be prepared to strip gears - is to take the roof panel off manually to eliminate any load on the mechanism. Then - EXTEND THE 2 LIFTING ARMS MANUALLY ABOUT 1/2 WAY OUT - next, while you DEPRESS the CENTER SWITCH above the rear view mirror (to trick the system logic - as if the panel was actually still installed) - use the rocker switch to see if you can move the ARMS ONLY.



If they move, it means the slip clutch is out of adjustment and cannot take any load. It's doing what it is supposed to do - protect the electric motor and drive mechanism. The Plastic Sunroof Gears in the transfer box are there as backup protection, and I believe are MADE to strip in the event the clutch is out of adjustment to the other extreme.



To adjust the torque setting on the slip clutch, use a thin 13mm bike wrench to hold the inner nut while using a socket or open end wrench to unlock the outermost 13mm nut. Then adjust the innermost 13mm nut to 6 nm or less torque - best is just enough to get the roof to move up and down and lock. The torque setting on the slip clutch does not have to "lock" the roof panel closed. It only has to move the lifting arms to the right position (about 3 gear teeth showing out of the transfer box) to "lock" the panel in position by having the end of the lifting arm lodged into the "bent knee" receptacle in the roof panel.



The limit switches when set correctly actually set the limits of the tilt and lock movement of the roof panel WHEN IT IS INSTALLED.



The Slip Clutch is really there to only limit the RETRACTION into the headliner for REMOVING THE ROOF PANEL. It's a nutty design (but then the whole thing is kinda overkill to raise and lower the panel for tilt only).
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