[Bulti]

I wondered if anyone here has seen this film by Bill Maher. I came across it a few years ago. The guy explains that basically religious people are, well, nuts.



People who are nuts aren't necessarily bad people in my book, but the nuts part -some more than others- I get. And quite dangerous if they get involved in politics IMO.



http://youtu.be/E2zhlDbMfDg



No doubt the start of a potentially lively discussion no doubt, and it has a bit of a link to the 'Gas Prices' topic.



Some good arguing sharpens the mind don't you agree? ;-)

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[ds968]

I think most everyone here knows my position on religion, but this topic is probably so divisive , so contentious, so deeply personal for many, that a group even as well behaved and civilized as our forum which has managed to debate many other issues whether political, economic, social , etc without resorting to offending anyone could be really pushing the boundries of the accord and friendly decorum this site has maintained for so long. Consequently even I, as irreverent and as generally apathetic to anyone else's opinions but my own, lol, hesitate to touch this topic in a public forum . Hey, I did not say I'm inconsiderate !

For those who have time to listen, I found this individual's discussions on the subject to be the most reasonable, most insightful, and delivered in a completely thought-provoking manner without being the least bit offensive or confrontational in the process. Link below to Sam Harris from his "The End of Faith" speech. Regardless of your beliefs I recommend listening to him, it'll be food for your mind :-).

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/pla...b-901&tt=b

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[parptarf]

That film is awesome. Think I'll see it again tonight.



All I have to say on that subject.

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[Bulti]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react when you even remotely think of touching the subject. Never stopped me from 'going there' though. It's not like I'm calling somebody's mommy names or something. ;-)



Mostly, when people get all angry and irrational even before a discussion can take place, it usually means they don't have a leg to stand on (is that even an expression in English? - too lazy to look it up).



Hey, it's either this or naked boobs, make a choice already. Did I say that out loud?

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[ds968]

" don't have a leg to stand on " is a South African expression, you've heard it used by the prosecution at the Oscar Pistorious trial.

I'll choose naked boobs, thank you.

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[Bulti]

Quite funny if you consider that Afrikaans evolved from Dutch.

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[flash]

it just shows you how effective an ad campaign was waged when a religion was started. drill it into somebody's head long enough that wrath awaits bad behavior, and pleasantries await good behavior, and soon enough it becomes a belief. it's really no different than our methods of controlling crime. we just don't have as tight of a grip on enforcement of policy as what can be created in somebody's head. forever is a lot longer than 5-10 at the county hoosegow.



you have to give credit to religion though. it brought structure, continuity, and organization to chaos. without it we wouldn't have the art and music we have now, nor the genealogical record keeping we have.



i'm definitely going to have to park an hour to listen to the harris speech though. sounds good based on the first few minutes.

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[968Syncro]

I simply can't believe this subject came up, but do have faith it will be controversial. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/glare.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



In addition to Harris, then read Dawkins "The God Delusion", Hitchens "God is not Great", Dennett "Breaking the Spell", and almost anything by Victor Stenger, suggest "The New Atheism" or "God: The Failed Hypothesis".

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[Bulti]

Flash, I'm pretty sure all the chaos in the world would not have caused the kind of misery and death caused by religion and it's -fanatical- supporters.



On the contrary, I want to believe that people would have found a different path towards different music and different art, but not necessarily worse variants of those. The men and women who painted god and angels and stuff would just be painting different things.



Like boobs for instance.

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[flash]

could be - not sure. don't get me wrong, i'm not defending or supporting the idea of religion. i'm just pointing out that, for better or worse, a lot of what we are is due to its influence. the ideological structure, and pursuing the idea of "good" behavior is obviously a good thing, and i'm not sure that man would have overcome his nature to be selfish otherwise. we have enough of a problem with that now, and mostly with those who cling to religion. i'm not sure we would have had anything more than a tribal society. there were too many warring factions, and religion united them. again, i'm not saying it's necessarily a good thing, and more people have been killed in the name of religion than all other causes throughout time combined, but it certainly did have a cohesive effect.



but, like with children, as maturity, broader thinking, technology and knowledge develop, primitive rituals and beliefs cease to serve a purpose, and in fact become counter-productive and even destructive.



the need of man to have answers to questions he can't figure out is an ongoing problem. religion provides an easy out for those. it's ironic that those who are religious and those who aren't actually agree about the fact that sometimes there are no answers we can understand. those who are religious choose to believe that it is "god's plan", and those who aren't merely realize that sometimes the dice come up snake eyes.



this will be an interesting conversation to watch. i congratulate the participants on maintaining an unemotional and enlightened discussion. keep it up.

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[Bulti]

It seems that all we need is a religious person... Who dares to defend baby Jesus? Lol

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[flash]

lol - i certainly don't have all the answers, but i also don't feel like i need them. i can glean from things that which i need without having to believe in something which lacks any real evidence whatsoever. belief in anything without proof is within your own mind, and nothing more than imaginary. taken to the not so distant extreme, we call that delusion.

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[WJH]

I will.



I'm always amazed that those that have no faith are so concerned about those that do. Why does it bother you? Seriously, I'm okay, you don't need to worry about me. LOL

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[flash]

it doesn't "bother me". i find it humorous, albeit sad. but, fairy tales and ghost stories have a place. they scare little children, who don't have the capacity to make rational decisions on their own, into behaving properly. that's not a bad thing.



how else would you control a population of people who would otherwise send the world into chaos?

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[WJH]

So .... now I'm delusional. I suppose I really have nothing of value to say here. Once you decide the other side is mentally challenged, what is the point?



Anything I would say wouldn't change anyone's belief, because I'm obviously delusional.

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[Bulti]

I don't think it would be possible to change each others mind on this one. Nor is it the intention of the thread. Nobody is right or wrong. It's just that religions are based on fantastic stories. They are about miracles and things even Hollywood couldn't come up with and there is more proof of me being Superman than the resurrection of Jezus.



It's about the same as I would state I believe in werewolves, just because there are some books written about them.



No harm in me believing in werewolves, but if I would be an important politician -like a senator or something- it would make people pretty uncomfortable.



Imo

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[flash]

lol - bulti - bang on



as for the rest, i don't have any "belief" for anybody to change. i only deal in fact and reality. give me different facts, and i may draw a different conclusion. i think that's the point that some of us are trying to make. there's fact and reality, and then there's a really nice story, complete with villians, heros, and magic. great in concept, and certainly the ideas trying to be instilled about how to behave and treat others are valid, but the rest is just fiction, designed to control the masses through fear. does a great job too, no matter which religion. that is, right up to the point where the religion somehow manages to justify murder. every religion says murder is wrong, yet many of them seem to somehow justify it if it is in defense of that religion. nice!



here's one for you. if god is all knowing and all powerful, and you're not supposed to worship any other god, then how come there are so many? why is there not one clear message or text? why do the religions fight against each other? all of that seems pretty lame for somebody who is supposed to be flawless and omniscient. it's been a few thousand years now, yet still it's all messed up. maybe he's just on the phone and doesn't have call waiting.

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[WJH]

There are so many, because man has free will. You can chose not to believe in anything, or you can choose to believe in something. You can pick your own God, free will. I know non of that makes sense to the non religious community.



"fiction to control the masses through fear." That sounds like some sort of Communist leader, usually they killed the religious.



Question, do you have a soul? Do you believe in anything after death? Are we just here and then gone forever?

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[Lear35A]

Sorry to be late chiming in. Who would have thought that mentioning a fill up of 93 octane at under $3 a gallon could get that 2,000 year old pastime of bashing Christians (broadened to include all religions) going on a forum devoted to an exceptional GT built in Germany in the late '90s? But I say if it makes you feel morally superior, go for it. Actually I feel pretty special. I get to be in the only group, world wide, which the secular/progressive/left deems politically correct to attack, demean, and belittle. (I am white and male by birth; Christian by choice). How grown up. Some might argue that various comments above are derogatory which would be contrary to Forum Rules, but under the guise of enlightened discussion it's probably ok. I seriously doubt that the majority (any?) of the previous posters have the slightest interest in why I made the choice to be a Christian, so I won't burden this topic with anything positive. But you're clearly having fun, and I'd never think of getting in the way of that.

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[968Syncro]

[quote name='WJH' timestamp='1417208212' post='164059']

I'm always amazed that those that have no faith are so concerned about those that do. Why does it bother you?

[/quote]

Faith doesn't bother anyone, but taking action on questionable beliefs does. It doesn't matter what people believe, only the actions they take as a result. Such as....

- when our president claims that "god told me" to invade Iraq

- when our president limits the potential of life saving stem cell research because of his own religious beliefs, not the guidance of the Constitution or laws.

- when the Pope tells the Africans ravaged by Aids that using condoms is immoral.

- when parents and other adults "indoctrinate" innocent children that they will become a martyr with 72 virgins if they become a suicide bomber.



That's why there is now significant research on how people attempt to distinguish between what they believe on faith vs what they believe as facts. And to try and determine how beliefs drive actions vs how facts and knowledge drive actions.

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