hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - Printable Version
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hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - biotechee - 01-11-2012
From Horrible Bosses with Jason Bateman (exact wording may be off a bit, but you'll get the gist):
Police Investigator: "You were drag racing in a Prius?!"
Bateman's character: "Yeah, I don't win much..."
One thing to keep in mind with electric cars - that electricity needs to be generated somehow. Currently, good ol' fossil fuels handle that duty. Sorry if that tidbit was previous posted.
Personally, I would rather see monies being spent to develop suitable alternatives to traditional fossil fuel.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - flash - 01-11-2012
true, for the moment. i think electric cars will still be the answer, with substitutions for the main power generation. we can also definitely do better at controlling the emissions of those plants, even using fossil fuels. it is much easier to control one point of emission than it is 300 million.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-11-2012
[quote name='ds968' timestamp='1326214071' post='120275']
I can comment on the fact that without exception everyone to whom I have spoken seems to hold hybrid drivers in contempt for some inexplicable reason..
[/quote]
I've noticed that as well. Many have never driven a hybrid. Its an unwelcome change and people seem to be hostile towards the change and anyone supporting it. Most who bash the hybrids single out the prius. As i use to. Many who bash have never driven them and will tell you that they have no interest in driving one. But it all sounds a bit close minded to me. i'm not sure I heard much of an argument against here and everyone seems to be against it.
[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1326275690' post='120322']
As for Hybrid drivers advocating their car - you would want to if you had paid a significant premium for some sort of technology to justify it. How many would really come out and say, "Yep I am another shmuck who got conned by all of the advertising BS and didn't do my homework"?[/quote]
Really Craig... Really? That's not the case at all. At least its not with Carlton. He has owned many cars and is a hard customer to please. We call him Dr. Doom as he rarely has anything nice to say about newer cars. The last car he praised was his Audi A6 or was it a A5? And the fact is, he didn't pay a load of money for his used Prius. He got it rather cheap as a commuter car because his Merc's MPG was awful. He now drives it everywhere as he loves the car.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - craigawoodman - 01-11-2012
rhudeboye,
If you compare the cost of a Prius (even without taking the additional Government subsidies, CO2 emissions tax exemptions and general hype/crap attempts to social engineer people's choices) it is a bloody expensive car. Compare a Prius's cost to the same sized Toyota - the Corolla - it is around 100% more expensive. You can drive away a Corolla here for $20k, whereas a Prius is $40k new. The diesel i30 is around $18k.
Same for the Hybrid Camry - more expensive than the standard model (but less of a premium than the Prius), same for the Civic Hybrid - and the potential reduction in fuel consumption is less for these. If your friend got a bargain second hand car - he maybe should be happy about it - but the poor soul who copped the initial depreciation is probably not happy. The hybrid bandwagon is mostly drive by hype - not facts.
As Bjorn Lomberg quotes in his book Cool It - when the technology is such that it does not need additional taxes, tarrifs, subsidies or any other market distortion to justify it - then it will be accepted. The technology is not there yet and the hybrid made sense 6 years ago when there were no other competing alternatives that could achieve the same outcomes - now there are, and there are more and better options on the horizon - that will not need legislation, taxes, etc to be valid. People will not choose them to make a statement, they will choose them because it makes sense at every level - it is the best option by far.
If MPG is your focus - buy a diesel small car - or a twin charged VW 1.2L car - the out perform a Prius and provide better fuel economy and are better for the environment than a hybrid in total life cycle energy costs. So the arguments justifying a Prius don't add up - even the Green/Environmental ones. So has the marketing been better than reality - you bet. There are ad's for the Ford Focus diesel here that quote "Australia's most fuel efficient car" - not a Hybrid, a small diesel.
Look at the CO2 emissions and fuel economy for a Diesel Cayene or Panamera versus a hybrid one - there is little difference, but the total energy lifecycle costs is in the favour of the diesel.
As for electric cars - as per previous posts and the one's above - they still emit CO2 and lots of it based on how the electricity is produced.
By the way - the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport both have V8 turbo diesel options here in Australia. Having previously said I would never own a diesel car - I am onto my second - for no other reason than it is simply the best choice for the application - it has halved my fuel consumption and therefore emissions.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - Cloud9...68 - 01-11-2012
Unfortunately, as others have said, there aren't a lot of diesel options in the US. Electric cars theoretically work for a lot of people, but they're awful pricey for what is essentially a single-purpose car. My recommendation for anyone contemplating a new car would be to wait a few years. The automakers are making improvements in gas mileage in leaps and bounds, and it will continue to accelerate over the next few years. On the other hand, this does expose the buyer to the risk of early adoption of new technology...
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - tamathumper - 01-11-2012
Quote:People will not choose them to make a statement,...
I only know three Prius owners, which is perhaps not a huge population statistically, but I genuinely feel each of them has done exactly this, they purchased their Prius in large part to make a statement.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - Cloud9...68 - 01-11-2012
[quote name='tamathumper' timestamp='1326318357' post='120353']
[/font][/color]
I only know three Prius owners, which is perhaps not a huge population statistically, but I genuinely feel each of them has done exactly this, they purchased their Prius in large part to make a statement.
[/quote]
Any of them have a "Rush is right" sticker on the car? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - craigawoodman - 01-11-2012
To clarify my support for diesel cars. I bought the first Q7 because the 3.0L diesel was not as cheap as the 3.6L direct injected engine, but it made more power and torque, used about half the fuel and had better resale - it was the logical choice when you balanced the variables - but mostly - because it went better and towed better. I like driving cars - not steering them and effectively being a passenger. I would and still would love the V8 diesel or V12 diesel Q7 - becuase it goes better, but how do you justify $40k more for two additional cylinders - the car inside is exactly the same - or $160k more for the V12 version. I sanely cannot do it. Maybe when the V12's get a bit older.
So the choice of the diesel was not a compromise it was an optimised choice - particularly when driving performance and enjoyment was high on the list of criteria - not something that a Prius offers up - more of a compromise than optimised choice.
In 2000 I bought a new Land Rover Discovery and looked at the diesel engine then - but its performance and cost penalty killed it. Same for auto's - it is only in the last 7 years that I have started buying automatic cars - up until then a 4 speed auto was simply not sufficient. If and when a better technology comes along I will look at it - but it cannot be a compromise, it has to be the right solution.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - Rap - 01-11-2012
I must be a relic. Does anyone here buy a car because they like the way it looks, handles, runs and how fast and quick it is? All of the opinions expressed here are valid from the perspective it is viewed from. Maybe it's my demographic where gas mileage is not an issue or maybe I am just a simple guy driven by the self interested emotional feel I get from a car that meets those aforementioned factors. I experience a flat affectation with hybrid which means they don't rise to consideration.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - ds968 - 01-11-2012
" From Horrible Bosses with Jason Bateman (exact wording may be off a bit, but you'll get the gist):
Police Investigator: "You were drag racing in a Prius?!"
Bateman's character: "Yeah, I don't win much..."
Funny quote, but after hearing Jennifer Aniston's dialogue <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> , I don't remember much of any other lines from the movie..btw, I gained new respect for her ! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
"I only know three Prius owners, which is perhaps not a huge population statistically, but I genuinely feel each of them has done exactly this, they purchased their Prius in large part to make a statement. "
Just my opinion, and surely not all, but I think the overwhelming majority of them buy it primarily for that reason, and emissions, mileage etc considerations are secondary.
" I must be a relic. Does anyone here buy a car because they like the way it looks, handles, runs and how fast and quick it is? All of the opinions expressed here are valid from the perspective it is viewed from. Maybe it's my demographic where gas mileage is not an issue or maybe I am just a simple guy driven by the self interested emotional feel I get from a car that meets those aforementioned factors. I experience a flat affectation with hybrid which means they don't rise to consideration. "
Amen to that !
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1326318037' post='120351']
rhudeboye,
If you compare the cost of a Prius (even without taking the additional Government subsidies, CO2 emissions tax exemptions and general hype/crap attempts to social engineer people's choices) it is a bloody expensive car. Compare a Prius's cost to the same sized Toyota - the Corolla - it is around 100% more expensive. You can drive away a Corolla here for $20k, whereas a Prius is $40k new. The diesel i30 is around $18k. [/quote]
Where are you getting your facts from? Here are 2011 Prius cost in the states. i have a Toyota dealership right up the street from me to verify this.
http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/trims-prices.html
The i30 isn't sold here. But i did a quick google and used ones go for what you said they cost new. And even though there reliability has greatly improved of late. Hyundai's don't hold their resale value like Toyotas.
http://www.carsales.com.au/used/hyundai/i30/diesel/
"People will not choose them to make a statement, they will choose them because it makes sense at every level"
[color="#282828"]90% of car owners choose standard fuel burring cars. Not diesel, not hybrids. I doubt the majority will ever do whats best for all. Most do what suits them. That said, [/color][color="#282828"]I respect those that are [/color]conscience of the environment and more selective when it comes to things that can harm it.
[color="#282828"]You make a good point on the "total energy lifecycle cost" I'm really interested to look into that. [/color]
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1326323410' post='120366']
I must be a relic. Does anyone here buy a car because they like the way it looks, handles, runs and how fast and quick it is?
[/quote]
Of course we do. We're 968 owners <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/3gears.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - craigawoodman - 01-12-2012
Rap,
Go to www.carsales.com.au (remember I am downunder where the goverment loves to plunder), select from the top menu line - Research - then Value Cars and you get to what is called the "Red Book" which lists car prices when new and their current market value - RRP for a base model Prius in 2011 was $44,590 - with no options at all. A 2011 Corolla Ascept RRP $22,500 - but these are always on sale at under $20,000. So it is more than double the price here. The hyundai diesel i30 - $23,090. Ford Focus diesel hatchback - $27,790 - and more fuel efficient.
THe biggest growth market for cars in Australia is diesel cars, but we had to get cleaner diesel to use Euro 5 emissions spec engines. The reason is that the fuel economy and performance are compelling. To get 550Nm of torque that I have in a 3.0L turbo diesel engine - you need to have a turbo Falcon (even a Gen4 V8 Commodore cannot match this). Combine a 190kW, 550Nm engine to a 8 speed transmission and it goes well (7.5 seconds to 100km/h).
How can anyone justify paying more than double the price for a hybrid small car?
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - redbaron - 01-12-2012
I purchased my 2006 Prius new and have had the opportunity to "test it" since then. My conclusions are:
- We average about 46 mpg, with mileage lower in winter 44 and higher in summer 48
- I have hauled a swingset for the grandchildren in the back with the front and back seats down. Plenty of space for hauling.
- I drove from PA to Las Vegas and back and averaged 48.6 mpg (yeah, I did a 100 mph in New Mexico)
- Your mpg is totally dependent on how you drive - speed racer gets 40 - 44, some Prius people get 65 mpg but most I ever got on one tankful is 58.9 mpg in the summer
- yes, I wanted to make a statement by getting rid of wife's 2000 Grand Cherokee with 15 mpg since I had a bad feeling about gas prices in 2006
- negatives; unable to totally fill the gas tank in winter since fuel bladder becomes somewhat stiffer, but I still get 44 mpg average in winter plus no volt meter for the 12 volt accessory battery.
- fun things; stealth driving (quiet) in parking lots and beating someone when the light turns green. The looks on non-hybrid driver's faces is awesome.
- my wife and I like the futuristic styling (it grows on you)
Bottom line, if you can get a subsidy (I got $4,000 from US and PA govts) then Hybrid is a sure thing. If not, you may still want to spend $23K for a Prius since gas prices may be $4 - $5 within next few years. If gas goes to $5 per gallon, you can bet I will learn how to "drift", etc and also get 65 mpg!
Don
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1326379352' post='120393']
Rap,
Go to www.carsales.com.au (remember I am downunder where the goverment loves to plunder),
[/quote]
OMG Thats nutz. 44k for a Prius. Really! At those rates I see what you mean. But here, in the land of milk and honey <--JK. We get them for 25. a bare bones can go for 19K and used ones with high mileage for as low as 8K so its a different ball game cost wise.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
No offense to any non hybrid fans (which is all the rest of you) but Red does not speak out of ignorance. I was a nay sayer as well. Why? Because it was ugly! The thought of a quiet puny engine shoved into a car that resembled my 3/4 Nike was absurd! no offense Red. But it started to grow on me. As I drove them, I liked them more and more.
I read an article on their reliability, it stated that by the end 2012 Hybrids will make up 10% of the cars in the US. They passed that percentage in Japan back in 2009. They double our hybrid sales. i believe the reason for this growth is a mix of the younger generation who make conscience decisions to buy hybrid be it fuel savings or environmental. And then theres people like me that are slowly won over by being impressed with my neighbors claims. My buddy Carlton is a mechanic. After working on a few hybrids he found them solid. If not for these experiences I'm sure he would still side with you guys.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - flash - 01-12-2012
44mpg - not surprising at 12mph - lol
around here, if you actually drove the car at road speed, which means keeping up with the 80mph traffic, constantly stopping and starting and dashing, the mileage quickly drops. around here, the average MPG of any car is almost always very near the city mpg. most people do not get anywhere near the highway mpg on average. like i said, most of the people here who have a prius AVERAGE in the thirties. that isn't bad, but it doesn't justify the purchase, if you are doing it just to improve economy. so, how and where you drive has to play into the decision.
we made a similar decision on the smart car. 44mpg sounded great, and we could have written a check for the car out of our wine budget, but after doing the math on fuel over a 3 year period, it still didn't make sense over the M3, which was averaging 22.
we contemplated replacing the denali with a hydrid too. the problem with that was the dramatically reduced towing capacity.
the other thing to consider is what it is like to drive something like that. 10 seconds 0-60 is painful, let alone the other compromises you have to make in creature comfort.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
[quote name='tamathumper' timestamp='1326318357' post='120353']
[/font][/color]
I only know three Prius owners, which is perhaps not a huge population statistically, but I genuinely feel each of them has done exactly this, they purchased their Prius in large part to make a statement.
[/quote]
I cant speak for the attitudes in your area or in Cali, where owning a hybrid is fashionable, but I dont know people that buy hybrids to make a statement. They compared, test drove, asked questions, calculated the cost, sat on the fence, drove other cars, compared specs etc. Then found themselves back at the hybrid. LOL This is where I am right now. I also dont like the smart car. Too small, but there's a member here with one who sent me an instant msg with the words "just drive one". i never did, but he made a good point.
BTW- I don't feel Rap, craig and others are speaking out of ignorance when they compare Diesel to hybrid. That's good stuff. im speaking more towards those that minimize the hybrids usefulness and functionality without ever spending significant time using one.
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - rhudeboye - 01-12-2012
[quote name='flash' timestamp='1326382611' post='120399']. the other thing to consider is what it is like to drive something like that. 10 seconds 0-60 is painful, let alone the other compromises you have to make in creature comfort.[/quote]
You could always buy a performance Hybrid. The Lexus GS 450h has a 0-60 of 5.2 Its faster then their V8. This is what I'm leaning towards to replace my BMW. It's not just about gas, its not just about the planet, it's not just about reliability and cost, its not just about speed or looks. Its about all of the above.
The Lexus GS 450 fits the bill. Tell me a better choice?
hybrids what do you think? Would you buy one? - lbpesq - 01-12-2012
I rented a Prius a few years ago when my car was in the shop and I had to drive down to FIrebaugh on a case. It was kind of cool and had more zip than I expected. One thing that concerned me a little was the display in the middle of the dash - a cartoon showing the electric and gas powered systems and tracking how much each was contributing at any given time. I had visions of Prius drivers everywhere watching that active screen like a soap opera as they plowed into the car stopped in front of them.
Bill