[rhudeboye]

I have now driven the Prius, CamryH, Lexus CT 200 and the Lexus GS450H



And guess what? I like them all. I like the feeling of whispering along on electricity, it adds a fresh dynamic to driving. I suppose it’s because it’s such a new experience. Never the less, I love pushing that button and simply seeing “ready”. No starter turning, no exhaust fumes, no idle to warm the engine. Just quietly go.



Actually, let me back up. When I say I liked them all, it’s more of a “I like what they do and what they stand for”. The Prius is a tad on the ugly side. The CT is really under powered, even when in "sport" mode there is no thrust of acceleration. The Camry I did like. Roomy, comfortable and has good power but it’s nothing special. The 450H is AMAZING! Very nice layout, sleek design and 0-60 in 5.2 and it’s a smooth 60. LOL it’s a smooth 140. but it only averages 26mpg while the others are 35 and above.



So I'm curious what fellow 68 owners think of the new hybrid vehicles? What do or don’t you like about them. Do any of you own one?

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[Cloud9...68]

I think they're technically interesting, but I personally wouldn't buy one. I don't like the complexity and cost they add, and the sacrifices you have to make in terms of trunk space to accommodate the batteries. Personally, I think the advances to the internal combustion engine that are on their way over the next decade as the automakers push to meet the new, much more aggressive gas mileage standards will make alternatives like hybrids less and less compelling.

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[94SilverCab]

I like anything with 4 wheels as long as it goes fast...would love to test drive a Tesla



Jay

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[Langley968]

I agree with Jeremy Clarkson.... a VW TDI is less harmful to the environment, when ALL things that make up the hybrid are taken into consideration.

To the question posed in this thread.... would NOT buy one!

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[craigawoodman]

I have a modern diesel full size 4x4, which gives excellent fuel consumption (around 7.9L/100km). A modern small diesel car gets better fuel consumption than a hybrid and costs less in energy to produce - so why go to all of the expense and create very nasty chemicals to be disposed of supposedly to achieve less than a modern diesel engine. Once biofuels like E85 are widely used - higher compression can be run in petrol engines - leading to even better power outputs and fuel consumption figures (well in the case of E85 - less carbon emissions, maybe not fuel consumption as E85 does not have as much energy as petrol).

So, would I buy a hybrid - definately not. The whole debate of Global Warming, now Climate Change (notice we are not necessarialy warming any more) has been hijacked by zealots who are trying to use it to undertake social engineering - and the placing of hybrids on a pedestal is one of their illogical acts.

For those of you who also think hydrogen cars will be the answer to our prayers - think again. Water vapour os a greenhouse gas (worse than carbon) and we will be pumping billions of tons of it into the atmosphere. Think we will not have climate change (lots more rain, humidity, etc) when this happens - I think so.

Deforrestation has more impact than cars. So definately no to a hybrid. Too complex, too energy inefficient, too expensive.

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[Cloud9...68]

I think hybrids are a transitional technology - when 40-60 mpg gas and diesel-powered cars (and possibly biofuels) start becoming commonplace, people will forget all about hybrids.

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[Chris Vais]

I don't think they are as green as people like to think they are. The most common hybrids use a gasoline engine to charge nickel metal hydride batteries, which are not recyclable and end up in landfills. The lead acid battery in our 968s can be recycled as can most of the rest of the car. Now a hybrid that uses a kinetic energy recovery system, might make more sense depending on how the recovered energy is stored.



As an alternative to gasoline power we can go to diesel although we are still consuming hydrocarbons. I like the idea of a hydrogen fuel cell electric powered car. The problem with any alternative fuel such as hydrogen, even diesel, or a biofuel is the cost of the infrastructure that would be required to distribute the product to same degree that gasoline is distributed. With that in mind diesel/bio diesel may be the best choice as an alternative to gasoline. Hydrogen has its own set of problems and you would have to have a new distribution system. What we drive in the future may be a function of the available alternative fuels and the problems or lack thereof when it comes to storage widespread distribution.



It will be interesting to see what happens with E-85 now that congress has killed the ethanol subsidy. I always thought that there was something fundamentally immoral about turning a food crop like corn into fuel when there are people starving in this country not to mention Somalia or similar third world hell holes.



Just an afterthought, I see more an more Prius drivers getting pulled over speeding these days. I wonder what kind of fuel consumption you get at 80+n in a Prius.

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[robadams56]

I agree with Cloud and others that clean diesel is a better alternative. If the US can ever get over the bad reputation diesel inherited from GM's conversion of gas V-8's in te 70's perhaps diesel will gain acceptance here. And now that Audi has proven diesel's performance capabilities at LeMans performance should no longer be an objection.

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[craigawoodman]

If you watch Top Gear, there is a segment where a Prius was driven flat out around a race track with a BMW M3 following it. The M3 got better fuel consumption under this kind of driving. Unless you are hyper-miling and a real economy freak - for general use - a modern direct injection engine is better. Even better when stop-start is on it along with cylinder de-activation.

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1326012635' post='120125']

If you watch Top Gear, there is a segment where a Prius was driven flat out around a race track with a BMW M3 following it. The M3 got better fuel consumption under this kind of driving.

[/quote]





Yup, saw that one. That episode was nonsense. No one drives full throttle on their daily commute. Under heavy acceleration the prius is using 100% of the engine and not taking advantage of the battery. Now turn that scenario around- Prius' owners have been known to do upwards of 70mpg. An M3 could never match that when driven like a prius..

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[craigawoodman]

Yes, but it all depends on what sort of driving you do. If you drive a Prius on the highway at normal highway speeds and keep up with the flow of traffic - then it will probably be using close to what a M3 will do. It is only in very heavy stop start traffic and very slow speeds that a Prius has any advantage. Modern engines with Stop-Start mitigate most of this. If you look at the overall energy consumption of building car shipping it around the world and then disposing of it - a Porsche probably beats most cars. Something like 80% of all Porsche's manufactured are still running - so this has averted the energy intensive process of manufacturing a car.

This is the biggest issue with hybrids, etc. All of the iron ore is mined in Australia or Brasil (maybe Africa). It is converted to steel in Asia (China/Korea/Japan), shipped to wherever the car is manufactured, made into a car and then shipped to wherever the car is sold. Most rare earths are mined in China - shipped off to be made into batteries, then shipped to a car assembly plant, then shipped to the point of sale, etc. All of this consumes energy.

So when people look at the "whole energy balance" of a car - hybrids are like peeing in a wetsuit when swimming - it might make you feel good for a while, but ultimately it stinks.

When hybrids came out - it was cutting edge and out-performed everything. Now, all diesel engines of a similar capacity perform better and have better fuel consumption than hybrids. Modern petrol engines like the twin charge VW engines and the Fiat engines are almost as fuel efficient (when driven the same way) as a Prius. The biggest impediment to performance and fuel economy is weight - masses of batteries do not help this. Energy is force x distance / time. Force is mass x acceleration - so unless you reduce mass - you are screwed. Drive at slow speeds and air resistance (the biggest force over 100km/h) mitigates everything else.

What also pisses me off is the constant trend to lower speed limits to try and force everyone to ue public transport (social engineering). This costs additional fuel use (or lowers fuel economy) as most of the energy is used accelerating the car - not keeping it at a constant speed. So if we are serious about decreasing emissions - better roads which flow better are the answer - not Prius's.

If you consider a road to be a pipeline - the cars/materials in the pipe can only move as fast as the slowest flow rate on the pipe. Free up the pipeline and it will flow better. Reducing a speed limit from 100km/h to 80km/h effectively decreases the road's traffic capacity by over 20%. By slowing cars down, we are creating more conjestion - not less.

THe people pushing these issues are trying to social engineer your life - don't let them. This is pushed by Governments to try and reduce road spending (when was the last major road built near you versus population growth).

Here in Australia, we pay billions in fuel excise and tax, vehicle registration, etc and around 20% of it is spent on roads.

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[rhudeboye]

I've been talking with friends that own Hybrids. Cost of ownership is not more expensive. Where do people get that? If the battery dies, then yeah, you’re in for a huge expense. But Toyota is covering them for 10yr/100K. Plus theres a good argument for cost of ownership being less. For example - Do to the CVT, your brake pads last longer as they are used less. A hybrid cars gas engine will be used less to cover the same distance as a regular car as it shuts down at certain speeds. So the odo read out is not an accurate picture of the engines use. Also many lead foots change driving habits when in there hybrids. It's that fuel/ battery gauge. You find yourself trying to stay within the blue to use less fuel. Inturn your easier on the tires, brakes, belts, everything. Its a little mind game that works.



Diesels- It seems that the Japanese are going hybrid while the Germans are going Diesel. I like the idea of a good diesel as well and it’s a tried and proven technology. But I hate the fact that diesel is more expensive then premium gas. When you google diesel vs hybrid you get some interesting comparisons. I’m not sure there’s a clear winner when it comes to mpg. Merc’s Bluetec seems to be the way to go but development cost is astronomical.

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[rhudeboye]

I was shocked to see someone else awake. Then I looked and saw youre in Australia. LOL. Very cool to not be able to sleep and talk cars with someone half way around the world. Anyhoo



So to the first point.. The Prius does perform well at 70mph, if the road is flat it simply sips fuel as any small engine would, When you travel down hill the engine shuts off and the batt gets charged. It doesnt require stop go traffic to be fuel effecient. HWY is estimated at 48mpg while city is 51. The M3 is 18/20! not even close. I took the Lex CT from MD to NC. I set the cruise control right at the top of the ecco bar. my speed was 79mph and got about 37mpg I wasnt just flowing with traffic, I was passing. Thats how I roll.

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[ds968]

I kept telling myself no way, no how, never...( applies to either hybrids or all electric cars ) but it honestly depends on what the car looks like. I would definitely not have any problems driving the new Fisker/ Spyker ( Karma ) even though it's immense so I can't imagine the handling is all that great, and needless to say either the Porsche 918 hybrid or BMW's electric supercar set for production in 2014 , but given that the msrp for both of those two is expected to be around $ 850,000 ..not sure I'll be on the waiting list anytime soon, lol. BTW, no offense Jay, but I would not drive a Tesla roadster if Tesla gave me the car for free, and on top of that they paid me to drive it daily. The Tesla sedan however, coming out next year looks a lot better . Still, it's tough to come to grips with driving cars that are either silent or sound like sewing machines. Yawn. JMHO



Awake here as well...insomnia at the moment. I,m usually up by 5 am, but this is way too frigging early. Think I,ll have a few sips of tequila and go back to sleep.

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[Rap]

Somewhere I read that the hybrids dont work well in mountains and in snow. I live in the mountains and drive up and down every day. Of course there has been very little snow this season, only 16 inches in Nov. but all wheel drive seems to be a good bet for me. Anyone else hear this about hybrids. My partner got the Audi r7 diesel and loves it. Somewhat quiet for me!

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[flash]

i am a tree-hugger, so it kills me to not do something about the undeniable global warming problem (we just broke over 1000 records with this week's heat wave) but, besides all of the obvious environmental pitfalls of hybrids, in spite of their emissions reductions, i have a hard time making the math work.



let's say i have a 67 chevy that gets 10mpg, and cost me nothing to buy, and even $2k a year to keep running, and i drive 10k miles at 3.60/gal - that makes my total annual operating cost of $5600



now, i go out and buy a prius for $30k over say even 6 years at zero interest (not likely), AND manage to get 50mpg somehow (not normally able to do that on average), AND have zero repair cost, my annual cost to operate is still $5720



it just doesn't make sense to get rid of a car you have to buy one that gets better mileage, unless you are leasing or something, and stuck with a car payment anyway



if i had to have a car that got screaming mileage, i'd pick up an 80 civic, which gets 60mpg, rebuild the entire car (likely a cost of $10k), and be WAY ahead of the game

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[tamathumper]

I don't think the math works yet on the hybrid technology, if you know what I mean. But that's only an educated guess, as suspiciously enough you can find a study that proves either side of every hybrid-related argument, which simply tells me that the "cloud politic" around the topic is still too thick to trust anything that's going on in- or coming out of- that arena.



Global warming (or the new term, climate change), is another subject entirely. My take is that Earth is billions of years old, and we've been measuring temperatures directly for only a few hundred years. (Yes there are indirect measurements going back millions of years, but they're exactly that, indirect measurements). It's been a molten ball of rock, and it's been a complete ice ball, and everything in between. It'll keep changing either because of us or in spite of us, and we'll have to adapt. And it will get really, really ugly at times. If we're lucky, we'll evolve in the process - we sure aren't enjoying much natural selection the way things are going right now.



I'm not sure about the claim that people are starving in America. If you take a trip to any Wal*Mart, you see a morbid trend of overfeeding on a massive scale. We could "save the planet" and shave a few degrees off the thermometer by cutting back on literally 60% of the food that's manufactured in this country. Imagine the energy that would be saved in the supply chain if people only ate what they needed, instead of enough to get morbidly obese as most apparently are. You'd solve the "obesity epidemic", much of the "healthcare epidemic", and "climate change" all in one "swell foop".

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[craigawoodman]

As the head of Ryan Air said - "How can you trust the people who cannot tell you with any accuracy what the weather will be next week, when they try to tell you with absolute accuracy the temperature change in 100 years"?



Egypt used to be Europe's bread basket due to annual flooding of the Nile. We stop the Nile flooding - we change the climate. We dam the Three Rivers in China and slightly move the Earth's axis, we are predicting movements of around 1 Billion Tonnes of Iron Ore from Australia to somewhere else - it all makes a difference. What is currently the continental shelf is believed to have been land at some point in the past (lost city of Atlantis anyone?).



Back to the car issue - I have got 7.9 Litres per 100km which by my rough math is 32mpg doing 110km/h plus on our crappy roads (which would be like your secondary roads - not a freeway). This is overtaking, going up hills, etc all from a modern diesel full sized 4x4 (Audi Q7). THe same engine in a smaller car (less frontal area/drag and weight to haul around) will get into the low 5's.



THere has to be a cost premium to manufacture a hybrid - the electric motors, the batteries, the electronics, etc - all add complexity and cost - plus weight. With the Volt and Mitsubishi IMev now being sold here - Rescue crews have to be re-trained on how to cut people out of accidents due to the capacitors/batteries and cabling, etc.



The biggest energy input is in making the car - not running it. So don't junk your old car - simply keep using it and making it more efficient. Much better overall energy balance equation. So what will a 10 year old Prius be worth when you have to replace the batteries (given spare parts prices?). Therefore, most likely, any car which lasts longer than 10 years will most likely be more energy efficient (overall).



As for hybrids and electric cars not working well at low temperatures - it is no different to a battery in your camera - the temperature is low enough to effect the rate of chemical reaction in the battery - hence less output and efficiency. So having a hybrid anywhere that there is low temperatures will not work. Electric motors also do not like wheel slip (although AC motors can self correct for this). So low traction would be difficult for them to handle.



We recently had a lot of media coverage about a QANTAS Airbus A330 which had flight issues (sudden departure from level flight - like clear air turbulence) - which was all due to the software controlling the flight systems. Having worked on electronic braking systems on locomotives which had similar issues - a throttle cable linked to an accelerator does not seem to fail very much - having computers in the middle worries me greatly. I was the maintenance manager at the mine that had the world's first AC & gearing dragline - the mechanical technology was proven - the problems were in the electrical parts all talking and working together. We don't know, what we don't know - yet we try to convince ourselves that we know everything about everything - the world is a complex place, its interactions are far too complex to understand - yet we try to apply very simple solutions to it. If you show me someone who has a simple solution to a complex problem - I will show you someone who does not really understand the problem.



Hybrids are a distraction. Perhaps is Porsche had continued with the development of their hybrid car and we had 100 years of development - it would be a different story.

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[flash]

i keep hearing the argument about "the climate cycles". the fact of the matter is that while it has been colder, it has never been warmer than it is now since the earth cooled and the oceans receded hundreds of millions of years ago, and we've had ice ages in between. there was never a hole in the ozone before, and we have never had C02 levels where they are now. coincidence? really? but i guess some people can be convinced of anything. they elected bush after all. twice!



back on topic



hybrids are a political diversion to allow the oil companies to continue to operate essentially unchecked. we know we can have cars that get 100mpg, but there is no way they are going to let us have them as long as we are dumb enough to buy into their plan. they found the magic tipping point of gas prices at just about $4/gallon. as long as they keep it at or below that, people will just keep doing the same thing, with no reason to change.

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1326028520' post='120132'] i have a hard time making the math work. let's say i have a 67 chevy that gets 10mpg, and cost me nothing to buy, and even $2k a year to keep running, and i drive 10k miles at 3.60/gal - that makes my total annual operating cost of $5600 now, i go out and buy a prius for $30k over say even 6 years at zero interest (not likely), AND manage to get 50mpg somehow (not normally able to do that on average), AND have zero repair cost, my annual cost to operate is still $5720 it just doesn't make sense to get rid of a car you have to buy one that gets better mileage, unless you are leasing or something, and stuck with a car payment anyway if i had to have a car that got screaming mileage, i'd pick up an 80 civic, which gets 60mpg, rebuild the entire car (likely a cost of $10k), and be WAY ahead of the game[/quote]



The emissions output is a good point.



I think you’re math approach doesn’t apply to most Prius owners. It’s very common nowadays for people to off load their old car after 3 -5 years for a new car. In this case, the owner was car shopping either way. And as were talking numbers, the numbers really show a lost in what many are doing nowadays as a cars take the biggest hit in depreciation within the first 3 years. OK, back on point- So if you’re buying a new car anyway, then the gas savings become a real savings. You also get a tax credit and the enjoyment of cutting your trips to the pump in half. These are satisfying rewards for busy families.



Buying an old civic is also not a good fit for many buyers. That old civic may do well in mpg but you’re sacrificing a lot of modern conveniences that would be in the modern hybrids. I, like many, really enjoy all those bells and whistles. The style also is dated and the 80 civic is tiny. The Prius is back seats can fit 2 adults. A used Prius can be had for 14 - 18K

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