[Anchorman]

When I read ads for people selling cars (specifically, Porsches - those are the only ones I look at), they often write "never tracked". I was thinking about this earlier today (no, I'm not writing my "for sale" ad) and wondered why "we" - the Porsche community - seem to think that "never tracked" is a good thing?



At first blush, it's obvious - the implication is that "tracking" stresses the car in a way that's bad for it. But - I ask, is that true?



I'm about to do my third DE, and one of the comforts I get from these events is that if the car doesn't break something on the track, it certainly isn't likely to break something during my daily - much less stressing - driving. The car has been "tested" beyond the normal limits, and all is good. That should be reassuring, not scary. It's like taking a physical and having a stress test - are you worse off discovering that you can (or can't) withstand the rigors of the test?



And, of course, aren't all Porsches designed so that they can be on the track?



Why do we perpetuate the "never tracked" syndrome?

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[Dave]

I could not agree with you more. I think the "never tracked" thing is more for marketing to folks that want a pretty car in the garage and look at me and say "won't that wear out my brakes?" when I tell them how much fun we're having.



There is an entire population out there that either has not seen the other side of the mountain or just isn't interested in going there. That's okay.



For myself, I would actually prefer that the Porsche I buy has been lightly or moderately tracked for the very reasons you site. I have seen very few cars at DE's that are completely neglected. Usually, quite the contrary.

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[flash]

agreed - people who track their cars are generally more prone to taking better care of them and keeping them clean (rock dings and such aside) - leaks and such are not tolerated on the track, so there is a tendency for the cars to stay cleaner - nobody wants a black flag



i think too there is a general misconception about track running and its effects - contrary to popular belief, running the engine hard on these cars seems to be good for them, and not bad - i'd much rather have a car whose engine has been worked well than a garage queen that never saw 6k



other than potentially the paint being in better shape, i can't see any other advantage of a non-tracked car, and actually see the potential disadvantages far outweighing it

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[Dave]

I don't know about anyone else, but my 944 and 968 both ran really nice right after being flogged within an inch of their lives at the track. Porsches really seem to thrive on it.



Now, finding a nice concours garage queen that I can give to the wife... I might look at "never tracked" <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lol - yeah, but russ already sold it - wow what a clean car - you looking for a cab or a hardtop?

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[Dave]

Ah, not quite yet. Much to do to the racecar over the winter.



Someone had a post about getting a second one. I actually thought about it and thought it would be more fun to have two distinctly different P-cars. I think my choices would have to be:



928S4 or newer - ALWAYS loved them. Heavier, but too cool!

993Targa - The glass roof has me smitten. I wonder if they leak? I wonder if I would care?



Need more money and time, that's all...

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[flash]

wow - i know a guy who had a 993 targa for sale - not sure if he still has it though - very clean car - burgandy (can't remember the interior color)



timing is everything

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[VentoGT]

Dave--the 993 targas certainly can leak....look on Rennlist and check the archives--very active 993 board over there. That said, many of them have not had issues with it either....the only downside to the 993 Targa is the complexity of the roof system should something break, and the relative lack of rigidity in the chassis [since it was built on the 993 Cabrio frame].

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[Dave]

Logic SCHMOGIC! I like 993 Targa's in Artic Silver and will one day burn the kid's college fund to own one!



Seriously, thanks for the tip. How's the brake pedal feel? You know you're gonna have to update your avatar now...

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[VentoGT]

hahhah--not trying to discourage you Dave, just letting you know...the brake pedal is a bit better after the bleed and replacement with SuperBlue....still not what I want, so I'm sure I'll end up throwing $$$ into 993 big reds at some point...we'll see though!

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[Beachboy]

Back to the topic. I find this amusing, "racer logic". Driving a car hard on a track is tough duty. If you like to race or DE or whatever then so be it, good on ya and I know how much fun it is. But the rationalization is obvious. Racing is hard on the car and the wallet.

I roadraced bikes for a few years. Whenever we started witha production bike it ended up being close to trash after two years. Racing bikes were a bit better but not much.

Roadracers had a famous rationalization about how it was actually much safer to race than ride on the street because you didn't have to deal with the cars. Simply nonsense. It was incredibly dangerous, even at the amatuer level deaths and serious injuries were very common.

So enjoy your racing but please don't tell me a tracked car is better because it's been sorted out. The most valuable and sought after used Porsche is low mileage and all stock.

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[flash]

it is tough duty to be sure, but not nearly as hard on the engine as stop and go traffic, or worse yet, the driver who fires it up to run to the grocery store a mile away and never lets it get up to running oil temp - for whatever reasons, these engines seem to LIKE being driven hard - they run better



the bigger issue to me, as i said, is that racers tend to keep cleaner cars than most folks - there are some guys out there with q-tips on their non-tracked cars, but not many - racers have to keep the car very clean just to make the grid - this points out items that need maintenence very early



think of it this way - if you bought a car from a racer, it would likely be like buying one from a guy who had a ppi done every weekend, wasted no time in taking care of a problem, did it with the best stuff out there, and probably paid loving attention to it as he did it himself



having seen now way too many commuter cars that haven't even had their engine bay detailed, i'll take the racer over the commuter any day

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[968cab]

To summarize this topic so far, the term "never tracked" does not automatically mean the car is going to be better than those that run an occasional DE event. However the best term might be "lightly tracked" <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> , as in "it's been really well maintained but I didn't drive it into the ground every weekend". Unfortunately, those who have never participated in DE events won't understand, as they assume that track=abuse.



The beginning post of this topic asked why sellers perpetuate the myth that tracking a P-car is bad. Perhaps it's just pandering to the lowest-common-denominator buyer.



I've sold a p-car without mentioning "track" in the advertisement and got several inquiries regarding whether it had ever been tracked. I now believe that it's usually a question that a potential buyer asks. I always ask sellers when I'm investigating a car's history, however I listen carefully to the seller's response. It's up to the seller to convince the buyer that it wasn't abused.

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[Dave]

Let's not get confused with racecars. Racecars are tweeked and modified, shod with Hoosiers, and subjected to stresses outside of Porsche's original engineering specifications. It's hard on them, I agree.



The term "lightly or moderately tracked" refers to cars that see occasional or regular DE duty. These show up most often bone stock (or quite nearly bone stock), shod with street tires, and filled with cleaning supplies to wipe them down in between track sessions. These cars seldom break on the track (unlike racecars) and usually go home with the A/C and tunes blasting.



They are as likely to be taken to a concours as they are to a DE. They have enthusiast owners that know something about the cars, browse this forum and others, and have taken steps to pass a tech inspection at the track. Normally they have flushed brake fluid (you should have seen the sediment that came out of the hydraulic system the first time I flushed my pristine and well-maintained '88 944), have been checked for leaks, have good operational brake systems/pads/rotors, and have had the suspension gone over. They usually have a decent alignment to boot.



I've seen a LOT of cars at PCA events, around town, and for sale. In my experience, the cars that get regular use fair much better. Also in my experience, the "lightly tracked" cars have had a more focused maintenance regime.



Of course, YMMV. I would not hesitate to consider the cars I see at DE's before others in the marketplace.



Just my 2 cents, adjusted for rising inflation...

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[flash]

yeah - that's what i mean - the guys that go out there like that (i generally call them the "racers" as opposed to "race car drivers") are generally pretty nuts about their cars, and will usually have a better example than the "everyday owner" or "commuter" - i wasn't really talking about race cars, per se, as they are dedicated track use, and could not really be converted back to street very easliy



is that clearer? hard to get across stuff like that sometimes

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[Dave]

Flash, that's clear. My comments were to help clarify on Brian's thoughts. I think we are all on the same page.

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[GuardsRedCoupe]

What page are you guys on? I'm on page 137...

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[flash]

i can't count that high - i'm only marginally brighter than the furniture - is that the page where spot is running?

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[Harvey]

I'd always opt for a non-tracked car over one that had been to more than a few DE track events and driven hard. It's real hard on brakes, engine, valve train, trans, etc. Ask any racer how often they have to rebuilt their cars. Porsche's hold up well to hard running but they're not invincible.



The upside is that guys who track their cars tend to be pretty anal about keeping them in good shape...but some sell them when they sense they're starting to "get a bit tired." Caveat Emptor.



Get a garage queen and replace all the parts that suffer under storage conditions. You'll probably end up replacing those parts anyway.



Harvey

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[flash]

as much as i would have preferred to have gotten a car that was regularly taken out on the track, i actually bought a garage queen with a bit over 22k on it 2 years ago, and paid a premium of 28.5k for the privelege - the car was immaculate, and showed absolutely no signs of age - it was a complete waste of the premium i paid - i would have been much better off with a car with a few more miles and one that had been driven hard, forcing the owner to change out marginal parts to stay competitive, but then i may not have had nearly as much fun modifying the heck out of the car



i did end up replacing just about every rubber part on the car - some because of age and some because i can't stand rubber bushings - the shocks and struts were old and not up to snuff, but better than most out there - the belts were gone - the hydraulic hoses were way past their max 8 year life span - none of these showed visible signs



as of this weekend, i have now replaced both the front lower control arm bushings and castor blocks with sealed monoballs (the rubber ones, while quite intact, showed age) - i have also now replaced the torsion tube bushings with polybronze and the inner rear lower control arm bushings with sealed monoballs - the stock bushings had begun to squeak, as they had gotten hard from age



these are things that would have been noticed by any driver like we've been talking about who pays attention to his car and who pushed the car hard - they just weren't up to snuff - a regular driver though, may never have noticed - they weren't shot or even cracked, just not perfect



unless you get documentation that says that these kinds of things have been replaced, you are really better off buying from sombody who is on top of stuff - scheduled maintenence isn't enough on a performance car - you need to replace stuff long before it becomes an issue - guys who get out to the track generally do just that - for example, you won't see one of those guys tearing into his rotors with shot pads, or on bald tires



there's a lot to be said for buying a garage queen - clean paint and clean interior generally come with that - but as harvey said, you still very well may have to change everything

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