[flash]

don't we have that now? isn't that what reality TV is for?

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[Rap]

You can block the sensors! Alcohol is taxed and distribution is controlled and monitored. Surely no one can think it works well. Ever go to a bar and watch someone who is trashed continue to get served? Ever see teenagers graduate from high school and go out that nite and wrap themselves around a tree drunk as a skunk? Ever see a 12 year old girl addicted to heroin who is more promiscuous than a hooker? Ever see a 10 year old boy who will ingest anything to get high? Ever see a young girl sexually abused in the privacy of her own home by her drug using parents? I use to employ inner city black youth in DC in the restaurant business. It was a hard sell to convince them to work for my wage when theirs for one night on a street corner ran into the thousands of dollars. Life expectancy was low and prison time probability was high. Didn't make a wit of difference. I bet legalization would increase my business. Do I want to see that? No. Why? The costs to our society are too high and the losses for our future in this country are beyond belief. Ever wondered why England sunk after the second world war. Look at ho many of their best and brightest were lost in the air war. We are already raising a society of kids whose overall education is horrible. We can't afford to purposefully lose more. I see these kids everyday and know that we already have set in motion the seeds of this countries demise. Can it be fixed and turned around? I think so but not as we continue. I am not righteous or reformed. These are merely opinions from my daily observations. I would be embarrassed if I was a democrat also! I am embarrassed as a republican just not as much! Tongue in cheek Bob. Lol

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[flash]

yup - watched it happen in my culdesac friday night with the kid across the street home alone - over 200 kids all drinking beer - every cop in town was here to break up the brawl that ensued



the problem is the lack of enforcement - we don't take it seriously enough as a society



that's exactly why, while i might see the logic and agree with legalization, i think we are are a LONG way away from making it law, and need to talk about it a lot more first

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[Rap]

Your sure giitin old . Don't you remember doing that as a kid. Somebody always had the parents out of town or out for a measured time. Just like you can't legislate morality I am not sure enforcement is the answer. Someone who is dead set on getting high or having a party will do it regardless of laws or police or parents. Enforcement is always a reaction. Where did those kids get the beer? Were they of age? If not this is a great example of the limitations of legalization. If they were of age the flip side is the consequences of something legally obtained yet misused. I said early on that we are not yet ready for a full discussion. Some of the statements here about the failure of the war on drugs, the cost of housing inmates or the number of people sentenced into treatment all portray the solution as legalization because everything being done now doesn't work. The end of prohibition( legalization) didn't stop alcoholism. Same thing here. Money and demand. If there was no where to launder your money, no business to buy or invest in, no bankers to bribe, no gov't officials to buy off, no border guards paid to look the other way things would be different. The mob was able to continue after the end of prohibition because they had already vertically integrated their business and had plenty of legit business to run. Trucking and bottling come to mind. Then of course they moved into gambling. Demand is another area to look at. No customers or less change the climate. This of course is not an area that we have been successful with. Just say no- Please. Scared straight- come on. Less and less people smoke cigarettes. How did that come about. Taxes, no way. None stop education, reducing smoking in a variety of venues. Think this might work?

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[flash]

yes - in fact, i had a party when my parent left that lasted 3 days, and resulted in multiple stops by the police, and them dropping a guy at my door, who had previously been playing air guitar on my lawn for 2 days, with them asking "does this belong to you?" - i was grounded for the entire summer



the decrease in cigarette use is due to 2 things - first, the costs associated with it (purchase price, taxes, medical costs, job screening) have finally convinced people that it just isn't worth it - second, common sense is finally creeping in



i think we are ready for the discussion though, just not a law

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[Monstrous4Banger]

[quote name='tamathumper' timestamp='1312113608' post='113507']

[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]No offense taken or intended.[/size][/color]



[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]My comments were not meant to cause offense, but if you feel offended, I understand and that is unfortunate. [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]I don't believe I questioned the character of anyone, I believe I questioned the judgment of those who sell an illegal drug, although I could have been more clear.[/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"] (I edited it a bunch of times trying not to be wordy or to offend anyone, but it appears I "over-pruned" that part.) My bad.[/size][/color]



[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]If you're somehow offended that I don't want to emulate you, there's probably a long line for that. [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"] Or maybe not, people shouldn't care whether I want to emulate them or not! [/size][/color] [color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Let me just go on record now that there are no adulterers whom I wish to emulate either. [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Given Arnold's long-term infidelity and the subsequent [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]catastrophic [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]impact on his wife and children, I'm not sure he's the right poster boy for "Making Good Choices".[/size][/color]



[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]I don't see the patriotic arguments or the Civil war tie, but that's a vastly different story for another time, and having more to do with bankers and usury in my mind. The forefathers fell on a spectrum, they weren't saints, and saying "They did it, so it's OK for me to do it" is an extension of "you are who you associate with", even beyond the grave apparently[/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]. Following this logic, someone might further imply that by following Thomas Jefferson, it would be OK to start a plantation, get some slaves, and father illegitimate children with them[/size][/color].



[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Blaming it on the parents or grinding an ax against people who are affluent across the board isn't something I accept in absolute either. I grew up poor as *dirt*, but drugs were just as prevalent there in rural Maine as they are here in relatively affluent upstate New York. I've read that there are hundreds of studies that indicate that once a child reaches mid-to-late teens, the parents are practically inconsequential, and it's their peers (their network of associations) who have almost all the influence. That's when "falling in with a bad crowd" makes a world of difference.[/size][/color]



[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Anyway, I've re-edited and re-worded this about a hundred times and it's not getting any better at this point. Bottom line, if it's something *you* feel strongly about and you can somehow do it without hurting others, as with all things OK. [/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]I've tried to express *my* preference that people don't do it near me, don't sell it to my children, and respect my position.[/size][/color]





[/quote]



No worries. None taken. No one is a poster boy for making good decisions. There are no saints. Even the ones that througout time that have been named "saints", are human, and have made plenty of mistakes, and bad decisions. The truth of the matter is that everyone makes bad decisions at some point. I fail to see how using cannabis is a bad decision for me. I did figure you would bring up his infidelity. Do you know personally the impact it has on his wife and children? I dont. I dont know Arnold personally, or his family. It never surprised me really, hes frickin Ahhnold. It wouldnt surprise me either if in reality, it didnt surprise his wife. I mean Arnold gets a lot of trim.... Whod a thunk it. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Thomas Jefferson may not have been a perfect man, but there is a plenty to be grateful for in regards to many of his decisions. For the record Jefferson was not for slavery, but he did little to speak out about it due to fear of societal retribution. It is well known he treated his slaves well, and freed many. The civil war was fought initially over textiles. The slaves were an after effect. Free the slaves, and who is to cultivate all that cannabis, and cotton in the South? What do you think the uniforms were made out of? Cannabis. My point is that no human is perfect, what your saying could be said for any one who has ever lived. Even by your logic Christ wasnt either. Im not a religious person, but Im really trying hard to think of anyone, who could be an example that never made bad decisions. Its pretty well known by scholars, and archeologists, that those anointing oils of the time were oils containing cannabinoids. Put some cannabis in a bottle of olive oil, let it soak for a couple days, filter, and rub it on sprains, bruises.....works better than icy hot. Does wonders for arthritis. Ancient remedy. Zero side effects when used like that. In fact there are coptic sects that still use cannabis as eucharist to this day. I dont want to start a religious debate, And mean no offense to any one.

Here are some of the things cannabis was used for in biblical times. [size="2"]clothing, paper, cord, sails, fishnet, oil(like anointing oils), sealant, incense, food, and in ceremony, relaxation and medicine. [/size][size="2"]"Cana" got its name from the same root word as "cannabis," indicating that hemp was grown there. [/size][size="2"]The Three Wise Men who came to witness the birth of Christ are believed to be Zoroastrians, who regarded hemp as a special gift of God.[/size] "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; that which cometh out of the mouth defileth a man."



Some One made the comment, they didnt know of any where alcohol was legal for kids. It is legal one way in the states. That is if the the parents serve them at home. Some orthodox groups would be very upset, otherwise. Not saying I agree, or disagree. Im just saying thats the law. The things they teach you in DARE class........



I want to make it perfectly clear, that no where did I imply that its parents fault across the board. As Rap has pointed out there are no absolutes in that regard. Nor am I implying that only affluent people are susceptible to bad behavior, and bad decision making, especially in regards to drugs. From my perspective, and experience, it was the well off kids that became involed in the harder drugs. Most of them are either dead, in prison, or over that stage in life now, and cant even enjoy cannabis, or a beer, because they just go right to the crap. I grew up in South Phoenix most my young life. My neighborhood was basically a pipeline for the Mexican mafia to funnel the drugs out East. I have a severe disdain for cocaine, heroin, and meth. Its funny though, cause the mafia is pretty strict about their dealers not doing the product. It was usually the more well off people buying the drugs, the ones from "the other side of the tracks" so to speak. Many of those people felt it was their way of getting back at "whitey"(the mafia that is). Being a white kid in the "hood", you can imagine how that may have perplexed me, and may have something to do with me never doing that stuff. I too chose to seperate myself from certain people, and associations.



Tama: I certainly respect your opinion, and would defend to the death your right to disagree. I certainly agree that usury, and the bankers are the culprits inevitably. Even in how they destroyed the cannabis indutsry. Actually, correct me if Im wrong, but we went away from a gold standard, about the same time we were lying publicly about cannabis, and stirring up all this false hysteria, that still exists today. Noticing a pattern yet?



People can say that cannabis has all kinds of side effects, all they want, and that its debilitating. Everything is a double edge sword. Even rehab can have a reverse effect, same with prison. Prisons are basically crime colleges. Im not claiming that cannabis is absolutely 100% harmless. What I am saying that compared to any other substance you can name, it is less harmless, and the lesser of evils, in that aspect. Aspirin, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine...... You know whats definitely more debilitating than cannabis? Me not being able to sleep. If I dont get rest, its hard to be productive. I have a very hard time sleeping without some type of sleep aid, Ive never slept well my entire life. Cannabis allows me to get rest, so that I can be productive. The only side effect Ive noticed is being really hungry in the morning. LOL Like Ive said too though, I dont smoke it, I vaporize it, or cook with it. Obviously there is a difference between use, and abuse. As I said, cannabis getting in the way of work, or being productive is a matter of priorities, and responsibilities. You dont get stoned before work, or school, or whatever else. Just as you wouldnt get drunk if you have things to do.





Everyone always directly focuses on the psychoactive properties of cannabis, and gives little thought to its industrial uses. "Reefer madness" has worked quite well. Cannabis getting you high was the ultimate veil to the oil companies getting rid of hemp cannabis. In fact, hardly any body smoked pot in the 30's. Or before that. The government created the problem themselves, by lying about it. Here we are in 2011, every body talking all the crap about "going green", oil supplies are dwindling, prices are through the roof. When the answer my friends, is blowing in the wind. We dont even need to change the infrastructure. Diesel fuel can be obtained from diatomic algae, and ethanol good be grown, and obtained from cannabis. To me the industrial benefits of cannabis are the most important issues pertaining to this subject. I want to list some of the industrial uses of cannabis. Im curious why people believe hemp grade cannabis should still be illegal? Can anyone give me a reason? What negative effect would hemp have on society?

1. Food
   
   
   • Hemp seeds are high in protein and fiber and can be processed into many different kinds of food products. Hemp seeds can be used as nuts in cereals, cookies and trail mix. The seeds can also be used to make beverages similar to beer, tea and milk. The composition of hemp seed is 25 percent oil. This oil is low in saturated fat, much like olive oil, and contains high amounts of good fatty acids. The oil can be consumed or used in health and beauty products. Hemp seeds can also be used in animal feed.

Textiles

• The long fibers contained in the stalk of the cannabis plant can be used to produce a fabric much like linen. Hemp textiles are biodegradable, strong and absorbent, and blend easily with other fibers. Hemp textiles can be made into anything from high fashion garments to industrial tarps. Because of its strength, it is a good choice for items that require durability such as rope, denim and canvas. The fibers left over from the textile making process can be used to make paper, composite wood board and building materials.

Plastic

• Hemp is up to 85 percent cellulose, which makes it an environmentally friendly and economic alternative to synthetic plastics. Hemp-based plastic is biodegradable without sacrificing strength. Plastics made from hemp can be used in a myriad of products because they can be easily molded and manipulated. Hemp plastic has been used in doors and bumpers for cars, insulation, building materials, CD cases and airplane parts. An added benefit of using hemp plastics in cars and planes is that they do not release toxic chemicals when on fire.

Fuel

• Hemp can be processed to make bio-fuel, which is an environmentally sound alternative to petroleum. Like corn and wheat, hemp can be processed into methanol and ethanol, which are clean burning fuels. Hemp biomass can also be processed into a charcoal-like energy source that releases significantly less or even no sulfur when burned. Hemp energy is renewable and less toxic to the environment than traditional, carbon-based fuels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp

http://www.voteindustrialhemp.com/



Probably to some surprise of people here...Im not a Democrat. Ive been registered libertarian since I could vote. I will actually be registering as a Republican this fall. Admittedly so I can vote in the primaries, then will be reregistering back to Libertarian again. So no, this isnt an issue of left, or right. As some people make it out to be. At least not to me. I just want people to know the facts, and vote rationally, and accordingly to what they think, with an educated opinion. For people who dont use it, the only education about cannabis, is the talking heads on mainstream TV. In which case, I understand why people think the way they do. I just want to see people make a well informed, rational decision. Believe it or not, I voted no on prop 19. I didnt see they way they were proposing regulation, and taxation as an answer. We are not quite ready for a law yet, I agree. We need to get the federal govt nose out of it though. It has become an issue of states rights. Which is something not to be tampered with IMO.

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[Rap]

Well thought out well written. But the fact that for whatever reason we don't use hemp doesn't change the dangers of legalization in my belief.

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[flash]

yeah - we have to be able to separate the commercial uses from the private ones



yet another reason that a LOT more talk is needed before we do anything

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[Rap]

Banger, what do yo mean by vaporization?

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Sorry for the very late response everybody. I have been really busyt lately, and not around the computer much. I went camping in the redwoods for a couple weeks, and was way off the grid. Every time Ive sat down to respond in the last few weeks something comes up.



Rap: Id say prohibiting hemp has/had everything to do with the wrongful demonization of cannabis. It was the reason its illegal, not because it was dangerous. I guess I fail to see the dangers of legalizing cannabis specifically. It always seems that the other side of the argument for this subject always reverts back to lump all drugs together, and not specifically referring to cannabis. Because cannabis in, and of itself is relatively harmless. In my opinion, it's not 100% harmless. The most harmful part of cannabis is the draconian laws surrounding it. It is basically legal in CA, and to the best of my knowledge...like Bill said, the sky hasnt fallen. You've admitted yourself, you dont admit many adults for treatment of cannabis specifically in your business. I am not for rescheduling the hard stuff. They really dont have any medical value that other contemporary medications cant treat. Although some psychedelics certainly have been clinically proven to have medical value. Basically all the hard drugs are already legal, and schedule 2. Oxycontin for example, is basically heroin, yet a doctor could hand it out all day. Heroin once had medical benefits, but they have become obsolete. It is wrong to say cannabis has no medical value, when its history as a medicine dates back thousands of years.

There are always going to be people who have chemical dependencies, and people who need treatment. Its is not a criminal issue, it is a health issue, and should be treated as such. the type of people you speak of who will do anything to get high, are usually escaping something. In my experience some kind of psychological trauma. It is the psychological issue that cause the behavior, get to the root of the issue, and get rid of the behavior that results from it. I just plain disagree your business will increase because of cannabis specifically. I think initially the demand will sky rocket, because everyone will be curious when its legal, but it will level out. Just like alcohol did after prohibition, once the luster, and the taboo wears off.



Vaporization: Smoking anything is inherently bad. This goes back to my statement that it isnt 100% harmless, depending how its used. When you combust cannabis, by-products like carbon monoxide are produced, as is the case when you combust any organic material. Vaporization is a way of heating cannabis, so the only the terpenes are vaporized, and nothing is combusted. Leaving behind the plant material, and the noxious gases, and tars that would be produced by combustion from a flame. I usually dont cite wikipedia as a source, but this article explains it pretty well.

http://en.wikipedia...._%28cannabis%29



Flash: Agreed, its going to take a lot of work to educate people about the facts of cannabis. The last couple decades a lot of progress has been made. Personally, I think we've become a nation of too many laws, and regulations. I dont see the need to have laws governing cannabis any more than I believe there should be laws governing the tomatoes one is growing in their backyard. Laws on driving while intoxicated on anything, sure obviously that needs to be regulated. Most of us here in Norcal dont want taxation, and regulation....we want out right legalization, rescheduling, and freedom. Hence why prop 19 failed. The media likes to play it off, as if the people werent for legalizing it....I dont see that as the case. The prop had too many flaws. The right one will come along, one of these years. Sooner than later.



For those who are interested in a detailed history of why cannabis became illegal, this is a good article. Its too long to post here.

http://www.drugwarra...ijuana-illegal/



BTW, I really like the new look of the forum. 968forums is definitely #1!!

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[flash]

it became illegal because of the downstream effects. it's not the direct danger due to use that is the issue. it's the collateral damage.



it is exactly the same reason you can't run down to the local hardware store and buy C4.



you also can't make it in your house, and can't even buy some of the things in it. this is why you should not be able to grow pot. there is no way to control its use or distribution when that is allowed.



we need to treat this just like alcohol (and until they become illegal, just like cigarettes). same distribution. same regulation. same taxation. same penalties for abuse.



but we need far greater enforcement.



all drugs are dangerous in nature, including alcohol. people are generally stupid, and do not have the ability to control themselves. if we did, none of us would ever have gotten a speeding ticket. that is why we have law enforcement. that is why we have laws governing the use of certain things.



there is a solution, but outright legalization is not it. it has to be somewhere in the middle.

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[ds968]

Well, since we were talking about impared driving on the " caffeine DUI " thread and pot came up in the conversation I recalled this ( more direct topic ) thread so thought I'd continue the MJ discussion here .

Now that pot is legal in California, it'll be interesting to see if we follow in the footspes of Colorado, where since commercial use was introduced ( in 2009 I think ? ) statistics show staggering and consistent increases in automobile accidents and automobile fatalities attributable solely to marijuana-impaired drivers, as well as equally astonishing increases in emergency room visits caused by pot use, overuse, ODs, etc.

For all the benefits pot evidently offers, the downside seems to be nearly as great as the problems caused by alcohol . Except for violent behavior I think .. But since alcohol is legal, it's tough to argue that pot shouldn't be as well, particularly since alcohol offers none of the medical benefits pot does. However, pot does stay in one's system far longer than alcohol does , and I suppose like anything else, when moderation is ignored and abuse comes into play, the results can only be bad.

Work productivity impact and similar things don't concern me nearly as much as the addition of stoned drivers risk does, and to a lesser extent even the emergency rooms cost for which we all pay ..

Eh, maybe we'll get lucky and I shouldn't be such a cynic . :-) .

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[Ryan]

Come on...texting drivers are far worse than drivers who have smoked a bowl. Texting is the new epidemic.

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[flash]

if you think that work productivity isn't an issue, consider the guys on the assembly line of your next car.  this is something i have specific experience with.  a lot of my friends worked at the GM plant in fremont, and many of them were stoners.  they used to laugh about the cars that came off the line when they were lit.  things not tightened. parts missing. all sorts of crap.

 

then of course, there is the nurse or doctor working lit.  or how about a cop?  a taxi driver?

 

pot should not be legal for recreation until we have a way to control who is under its influence and when, similar to alcohol.  it isn't perfect, but it works pretty well.

 

medicinal uses should be in pill form, and by prescription.  i am stunned that the pharmaceutical industry didn't pick up on this one.  they would have made a mint.

 

lol - of course, now that trump is coming in, i may have to start getting stoned just to deal with it

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[ds968]

Completely agree ! ( Ryan's post ) I think texting is even more dangerous ( by far ) than driving drunk. And whereas you might have just a handful of drunk drivers on any given road, mostly in the evening or night hours, I'd say 75 % of people I see at wheel are texting , and every hour of the day ! It is indeed an epidemic, and yet the penalties are little more than a slap on the wrist . I think a DWI charge and making the penalties equivalent to a DUI is very appropriate for that violation, I'm surprised police and municipalities are not pursuing that ..


As for employment productivity, yes , those potential issues and for those professions iit becomes more more relevant, but again,moo more so than being buzzed by alcohol, and with less danger . I suppose however, a drunk officer or doctor or assembly line worker would be far easier to detect than someone stoned , lol.

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[flash]

i wish they would make the texting function on phones stop working in cars, much like "airplane mode", and the phone function only accessible through bluetooth in the car, and not while moving.  this would be easy to do, and a whole lot safer.  people are just too stupid to do this by themselves, and everybody thinks it's not them that is the problem.

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[968Syncro]

Boy, I am hesitant to post this news article, simply because of the "studies have shown" problem.   Of course with all questionable news stories about "studies" we should set aside the correlation vs causation problem as well.  On the other hand Columbia U. is a credible source.

 

States with medical marijuana laws have fewer traffic fatalities, according to a new study

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/27/traff...marijuana/

 

Like the discussion suggests, people setting aside alcohol in favor of marijuana is an obvious factor in reduced traffic accidents, and that is a good thing.

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[ds968]

Ah, the " new study " syndrome .. One constant is that a year after a new study comes out a newer study comes out showing diametrically opposite results vs. the old study, lol. Actually it's the NTSB that listed the Colorado stats at a 40 % ( IIRC ) traffic accidents increase and fatalities due to pot , and the hopspital stats for ER were nearly a triple increase , which is astounding. But yeah, the credibility associated with any published statistic is highly questionable without details as to all the other factors involved,, sources, sample size of the study, etc, etc.. But if alcohol is substituted for pot, that's a 'duh ! as far as I can tell ;, no kidding accidents and fatalities drop .. driving while mellow is much saferthan driving drunk , IMO .

Ok, here is a driving statistic precisely as published many years ago by MADD , but I still remember it well : " drunk driving accounts for 30 % of all fatal accidents . My interpretation : , that means 70 % of fatalities are caused by sober drivers ! Conclusion : the roads would be a lot safer if everyone at the wheel was drunk.

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[flash]

i would hesitate to attribute any benefit there to the use of pot.  as the article says, there are a lot of other factors contributing to this.

 

what i would find as a much more important statistic is the accident rate, not the fatality rate.  i am not particularly interested in fatalities.  cars in general are getting so safe it's actually pretty hard to get killed in a new one.  however, i would be willing to bet that the accident rate has gone up.  accidents are a much larger factor in burden to society than fatalities.  people who survive can and will sue.  people involved will cause loss, and those who survive will likely do it again.  it is a long proven fact that people who behave badly, are far more likely to do it again than they are to learn from it and change the way the behave.

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[lbpesq]

Dan, can you please cite your sources for you claim that in Colorado "since commercial use was introduced ( in 2009 I think ? ) statistics show staggering and consistent increases in automobile accidents and automobile fatalities attributable solely to marijuana-impaired drivers, as well as equally astonishing increases in emergency room visits caused by pot use, overuse, ODs, etc. For all the benefits pot evidently offers, the downside seems to be nearly as great as the problems caused by alcohol"? I suspect you will have no difficultly finding stories where people claim such, but will have trouble finding actual valid statistics that support these claims.


And your claim that "pot does stay in one's system far longer than alcohol does" is misleading. It is true that a test for cannabis can detect use over three months later in a regular user whomgoes cold turkey. What they are testing, however, are metabolites created by the body processing cannabis. These THC metabolites are fat soluble. That does not mean that the effects of cannabis last for over three months. The metabolites released in the urine are not THC and do not have any intoxicating effect.



and I suppose like anything else, when moderation is ignored and abuse comes into play, the results can only be bad.

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