[flash]

yeah - the reviews are horrible. handling piss poor. i was really bummed. i think the body is one of the best designs in a very long time. i didn't like the interior, but i sure liked the body. i also had high hopes, given the power it had. when i read how badly it drove, i was truly bummed.

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[ds968]

Don' t have to drive it, you can just look at it and the very first thing that comes to mind ( well, the second thing - the first is " wow, this is one of the most beautiful cars I have seen " ) is : great , as long as you can drive straight and never have to make a turn at more than10 mph..

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[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... Interesting. It is pretty heavy, even for a modern car, which can't help. But surely its handling is something that can readily be significantly improved upon. But I can can appreciate that doing that makes a lot more sense on a "cheap" car - there is something galling about having to "improve" what is still typically an $80K plus car. Sure is pretty, though.



I do agree about the interior - it would take some serious getting used to, especially the way the major gauges are placed in the center of the dash.

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[ds968]

Methinks we've taken this thread just a bit off topic.. So back to altering a 968 for a lot more power and using a NA engine - I have no clue what kind of a transmission ( maybe 944 turbo ? ) or suspension, or brakes or any other mods you need to have to accommodate this, but if you really want the only 968 on the planet with a 500 hp NA engine, and keep your AC.. ( oh, and have about $ 60,000 to $ 65, 000 you don't mind putting into it...there are places which will custom build a smal block aluminum V 10 , yes, a V 10, and at the same weight as the 968 engine, to fit perfectly in the bay, and make all else look as it it was factory ..

Just for those that have a really, really heavy wallet and prefer driving a 968 to, anything else out there in that price range.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

I couldnt agree more. So many 951's are being converted its sickening. I tell people all the time Mezger didnt design the rest of the car for a powerband like that. I dont understand why people dont just buy a vette. Apples, and oranges. Not to mention I'll never buy a GM product, ever.

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[Cloud9...68]

Monstrous,



Good point. I often jokingly refer to my car as my underpowered Corvette, given the similar layout, minus a few hundred horsepower. If you want a small-block, might as well get the rest of the package. In the end, it's probably a lot cheaper, too.

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='ds968' timestamp='1316810967' post='115803']



That's IT, you're permanently banned from this forum ! Oh, wait you're one of the forum owners.. umm,ok I got it : ban yourself from this forum ! Just for making a comment of that sort, you should be forewarned that I'll have my "second" travel over to your place, take off his glove and slap you into a duel challenge. Torque wreches at 50 paces.

[/quote]



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/icon_lol1.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[tamathumper]

Shouldn't that be, "Torque wrenches at 50 (newton) meters"?

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[jfrahm]

I don't know. There are plenty of 944 turbos and even a few 968 turbos out there that seem to get around pretty well with over 300whp. I have owned cars with more power, smaller brakes, skinnier wheels, a less stiff chassis and it all worked out.



The appeal of the V8 for me is nice fat midrange and decent top-end power, and running a motor designed to deliver that kind of power without expense or drama. For some racers, hitting a target HP level with a reliable engine that is not high strung or even expensive to replace is their goal. The turbo guys are generally more inclined to do the swap as many of them already shoot for higher HP levels and have seen the cost and reliability of the high HP turbo configurations. Some already have an investment int he chassis they do not want to walk away from.



I have looked at Corvettes and they just do not excite me. It'd be hard to spend that fair bit of money and still feel like it's just not what I wanted. The issue is that there is just nothing I can come up with that I would be excited about at a price point I am comfortable with or even at a price point I am somewhat daunted by. Having to get the top down makes all this very difficult, If I wanted a coupe I'd just get a 928GT and go drive. Maybe I'll waffle long enough for a used 650ic 6MT to come down to $30k or so.



I personally would not ruin a steak with A1 sauce or by cooking it well-done but if that's what you like, go for it.

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[anthonymaher]

Reminds me of all the MGB's that had small block V8's stuffed in them, the ones that worked looked really hacked up. I think a lot of backyard mechanics found out it wasnt so easy to be Carroll Shelby. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> I agree wiht jfram, and start with a 928 if you want that V8 power, or if you want to live dangerously, get a Sunbeam Tiger, complete with the skinny tires and a lot of hp. It is also much more fun to see peoples faces when describing the 3 liter 4 cylinder engine in the 968.

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[benspeeder]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1316788427' post='115792']

i'm not that much of a purist, as i really hate porsches to begin with, [/quote]



WTF???? Hate Porsches and think people don't like the Z8? You just dropped a few pegs on the respect meter....

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[flash]

lol. i find nothing to like about porsches, and only tolerate the fact that the 968 is one, because it really is a departure from that marque.



as for the Z8, just read the ample reviews. beautiful to look at. not great to drive.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

[quote name='jfrahm' timestamp='1316963558' post='115865']

The appeal of the V8 for me is nice fat midrange and decent top-end power, and running a motor designed to deliver that kind of power without expense or drama. For some racers, hitting a target HP level with a reliable engine that is not high strung or even expensive to replace is their goal. The turbo guys are generally more inclined to do the swap as many of them already shoot for higher HP levels and have seen the cost and reliability of the high HP turbo configurations.

[/quote]



I guess I wouldnt call a 3.0 with 17ish psi "high strung". Thats good for high 300's hp to the wheels. Well into 400's tq. With the right turbo, and tune, etc, plenty of mid range grunt. Now, a 3.0 I4 with 30. 40, 50 psi....thats high strung. Even into the 20's with the deck still open is getting high strung. The 951 is rated to about 500. Beyond that things like to twist, and ring, and pinions like to snap, axles break, etc. The 968 with a slightly stiffer tub, and stronger transaxle is good for about 600. Beyond that its quite a sllippery slope. The only reason I would understand a v8 swap, is because with moderate boost, really big numbers are possible. ie: 1000's. But the rest of the car just isnt up to the task. The I4 under boost is perfect. You can achieve similar numbers as a NA v8, and still be pretty darn reliable. I'll admit a newer lsx engine is a bit more reliable. But are belt changes really that horrible? Under heavy track conditions I would see the I4 needing dry sump too IMO. Then there is the whole OHC, vs pushrod thing....meh The I4 has no problem maxing out the capabilities of the car with boost. Then there is always the option to go to a 3.2. Its simply not a really high HP capable car. Not reliable, and arguably streetable with any motor. If I wanted that id buy a vette or supra. Im perfectly happy with a 4-500 hp street car. No desire to have more, not in these relatively light cars. The newer vettes are very similar, like a 968 with different curves, and fiberglass. Same basic lay out. Whatever floats your boat man. Just my opinion. Admittedly I dont llike seeing another 968 fall victim to a renegade hybrids conversion, they are not a dim e a dozen. Neither are 951's really either. At the current rate, parts will become more rare. But, thats why I have an entire other car in parts, and a couple complete motors, sitting on the shelf LOL. People are gonna do what they want with their cars.



To me, if people want to throw a GM motor in to save money, they shouldnt have bought a Porsche. Part of the fun is wrenching on it. If people didnt expect it to be expensive.....uh....buy American....err Mexican/American, or wherever they are currently outsourcing assembly to these days. I mean, i didnt buy a Porsche thinking yeah, this is gonna be light on the wallet....ya know? As the saying goes "there are no cheap Porsches"

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[jfrahm]

I think it is fair to say a 17 psi boosted 4 cylinder turbo is more "high strung" than a stock Camaro V8 but a semantic argument does not interest me.



I agree that if the car you want is already built by a factory and available at your price point you should buy that car rather than convert or create the car you want. A good example of this is the 944 Turbo. People who want to turbo a 944 are better off buying the factory example IMO rather than converting an NA. But what if you look for a factory example of the car you want and come up empty?



The funny thing is that your own .sig makes my argument: '"I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself."

Ferdinand Porsche'



I'm still looking for the sports car of my dreams and if I have to build it, and I have the time, so be it.



-Joel.

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[968LS1]

Wow! I have been away from this forum for over a year and with help from Flash I was able to get signed back on and found the info I was looking for to replace some window trim on my LS3 968. I really like this site and glad to see that it continues to gain content and members. While reading through and getting reacquainted I ran across this post and was taken back with the misinformation concerning LS conversions. On of the things I have learned over the years about the internet is don't believe everything you read or see posted and this is an example. I am not making this reply to get into a feud with Flash but just want to give the fact based on first hand information not something I read.

I am somewhat the father of 944/968 V8 conversions and performed the first LT1 951 15 years ago so I do know what I am talking about. Concerning the published weight of the two engines I have shipped both engines and had them weighted on a commercial shipping scale using a 48x48 wooden pallet and they weigh with in 20 lbs of one another but more importantly is what the car weighs before and after the conversion I could go into the numbers but was so long ago when I was doing this frankly I can't remember the exact #'s. My gray 968 that was features in Excellence magazine with all accessories, AC, heat was 51F 49R so the 120lbs extra weight is just not a fact. The 1% change was undetectable and that "street" car ran consistent 1:33/1:34 lap times at Road Atlanta check the times that is moving for a car I drove back to Birmingham with the air on. I would suppose adding a supercharger and inner cooler would have a similar if not greater effect on weight balance so the claim that the weight ruins the car would be true for both. As for the gearing the O1E 6 speed is not the transmission to run in the LS conversion the 944T 5 speed is much more suited for the broad power band of the LS and does not require the close ratios of the 6 speed to keep it in the sweet spot. The turbo 5th gear (.829) is interchangeable with the 944NA (.729) and gives a cruising rpm of 2500 at 76mph with a 25" tall tire so the statement about cruise RPM is just wrong in fact it is lower that an 968 with its 6 speed at the same MPH. The 951 gearing is almost identical to the after market Tremec 5 speed transmissions designed to be run with V8 in muscle cars as replacement transmissions with overdrive. In all the years I have been driving these conversions I have yet to have a transmission failure so if you don't abuse the equipment it will last. The main issue with the brakes is that the booster must be eliminated to fit the V8 this is easily solved with modern hydraboost from either a 80's vintage BMW 5 series or Ford mustang these are not expensive units and simple to fit.The other option is an electric power brake master cylinder from ABS Power Brake more expensive but it eliminates the plumbing from the power steering pump. Unfortunately I wrecked my grey car after 8 years of driving it and I can tell you for fact the chassis was not falling apart as alluded to due to the extra stress. Rather that fix the car and I could have I sourced a distressed high mile 968 for 4K saved it from being parted out and used many of the components for the wrecked car to build the new one. An properly done LS conversion is not for everyone they are time consuming and can be expensive but they raise the car to a level of performance not attainable with the factory 3 liter and that has been proven by dozens of 944/968 conversion across the country. I have yet to find anyone who has done a quality conversion wish they did not do it. Check the NASA records across and see how many race wins converted 951's have amassed the numbers speak for themselves. The 968 appeals to me for several reasons I love the body lines (except for the headlights), the simplicity of the chassis and in it day the 3 liter was ahead of its time for large displacement 4 cylinder engines. I wanted more performance than that engine could offer and something unique so I converted the engine and am happy with the results along with dozens of other across the county and a few around the globe. Please don't take this post as con traversal just another mans informed opinion. Here are a some of photos of my new car under construction and of old grey in action at Road Atlanta for those who might be interested. Respectfully Tom Egan 968/944 LS Addict.

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[Cloud9...68]

Tom,



Thanks for that perspective, and the respectful tone is always appreciated by all. I just have one question - given the similar layout, weight, and external dimensions between a Corvette and a 968, what do you see as the benefit of dropping an LS into a 968, vs. just buying a Corvette? Is it primarily a preference for the 968's looks, or is there something more tangible that makes a 968 LS swap a more appealing machine to you than a Corvette? Thanks.

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[Dubai944]

Finally some sensible posts popping up on the subject...V8 swaps can be made to work very well in this car and many others.I have done a few although not in the 944/968 but the car seems ideal for a swap to me. You do have to set up suspensions, brakes and address gearing and chassis issues, I also loathe the badly done backyard swaps, but it doesn't mean you couldn't built a really nice V8 968 that handled well.

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[flash]

nope - no fued at all



i would be interested to know how the 2 engines were equipped when they were weighed. thanks to my local dealership, i have now also seen in person the weighing of the engine, with equal equipment, and can confirm the difference



thank you for confirming my finished car weight estimates. if you are now 51/49 now, then you are heavy in front, and it is a fact. the hardtop starts off 66 lbs TAIL heavy, which is actually 49/51. so you have crossed over that, and changed the balance the other way by, making an estimated 132lb increase in weight, which is exactly what i said. again, not the end of the world, but still a fair amount. the issue is the torque change and how that affects balance. the car would need to be sprung to handle that. even the torque change from the supercharger has me rethinking my springs to stiffer ones.



the weight addition of the supercharger is 38lbs. not a lot, but there nonetheless. i recommend moving the battery to the rear to compensate.



again, not starting a battle, and i am glad you liked the conversion. from the sounds of it, you went to some length to correct things that most people ignore and find out about after the fact. i see way too many of these that just look like crap and are slapped together.



when was the car in excellence?



how many miles were on it when it crashed?

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[968LS1]

Good question-I would like to have a C6 Z06 and have driven several at DE events as an instructor but a 50K or so for a nice used one its out of my price range; a basic 6C just did not interest me once I saw the Z06. I have a good bit less in my car than a basic C6 would have cost back in 2006 and by the time I modified it to have an equal the level of performance I would be it the 40-50K range. My grey car weighed 2860 a C5 Z06 is 3150 so there is a weight advantage as well. The C5's are just cheap/poor quality to me the interiors are plastic and remind me of a Chevy truck interior not to mention they are a dime a dozen . At one time I had a great offer for my grey car and thought I would sell it and buy a C5 Z06 but after driving a couple they just did not have the quality feel of my 968 I am 6'5" and they felt cramped to me as well. I did have to modify the mounts on my Cobra seats to gain adequate head room with a helmet on and extend the steering wheel 2" to fit me properly. It is rare that I see a 968 on a daily basis but I see a Vette almost everyday. I took my old car to a couple of car shows and there were several Vette's there and I noticed that most people would walk right by the Vette's to look at my car with the LS1 most did not know what a 968 was. My current car makes 450rwhp with a very mild camshaft and a good set of ported LS3 heads it could be a daily driver but its my "toy" and I have a truck for daily use. I have been doing this a long time and have accumulated nice parts for the car over time so my investment has been stretched out over a number of years and I do most of my own work. If I added it up I will probably have 25-30K in my car and I don't know of anything else I would want at that price point. The last point is that I enjoy building cars not just ordering parts and bolting them on anybody can do that and it can be easily replicated I like designing and fabrication parts that have a functional use. Today most of the basic parts for these conversion can be bought on line so it has become more popular, affordable and doable for the average enthusiast. It is not for everybody but I sure have enjoyed doing it and helping others.

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[flash]

the more i see the new vette, the more i like the looks of it..........from the outside



i just can't get my head around the dash though



there is no denying the performance, and that has always been something about the vette. i've had a couple of them, and always thought they were the best bang for the buck of pretty much any car out there. that still holds.



if only they weren't so common, and i could wear big belt buckles



ls1 - sounds like you're approaching the project right. when your car is done, i'd love to pop out and drive it.

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