[flash]

i just had to vent, as the most unbelievable thing happened today, and it just illustrates why any public health care system is doomed

let me preface this by saying i firmly believe that we need a form of basic public health care available to all, and our taxes should pay for it, if only so that we don't see epidemics spreading so fast as they do now

the argument about the level of care degrading due to that is pure hooey, and doesn't need to happen if we have multiple levels of care, including private options like we have now - basically i would propose a basic plan to all, and then private plans with a tax credit to make up for it if you buy your own coverage - everybody wins

or not

the problem is that we would first absolutely need to regulate the industry - before the right wingers get all up in arms, let me say that the reason for this is to get a control on what is charged so that we don't see $11,000 MRI bills getting written off to $1100 because that is all the insurance will pay, and the provider writes the rest off, and the taxpayers get stuck with the remaining loss (yes this happened with me) - i realize that the providers do this to account for those who skip on the bill, but if we had a public plan, AND we had regulation, we would not have any need for loss write-off, because they would be getting paid

now to the thing that just happened:

i went in a few weeks ago because my kidney hurt - they took a culture and sent it to the lab - sure enough, i had an infection - i paid my co-pay, and my insurance then kicked in - great - the system worked - or so i thought...

i just got a bill for.....wait for it..........79 cents for what the insurance did not cover - i was outraged - first, that the insurance did not cover it, and second that not only did my carrier send me a notice telling me that, but the provider sent me a bill - between all of that paperwork and postage, there must be at least $20 spent in an attempt to recover 79 cents - i called the provider, and they zeroed out the bill - so not only did they waste a bunch of money sending the bill, they blew it off, and spent time doing that

if i ran my businesses like that i would be out of business

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[PorscheDude]

And people wonder why insurance and health care costs are outta control....

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[flash]

yup - absolutely blew my mind - i had half a mind to mail them 79 pennies.......postage due

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[flash]

it's truly sad that we will probably never have a fully functioning system, because the lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies, and the attorneys who make their living on the medical industry, are just too strong - until the insurance companies take up the fight, we will all be screwed

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[biotechee]

Insurance companies need to take up the fight? Are you serious?? You just made my day!

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[flash]

well, i know it sounds ridiculous, but they are the ones paying the bills, and with costs soaring due to things like abuse and the above mentioned tax write-off scam (which would get any of us tossed in jail, but seems fine for medical providers) the only way i see effectively combatting them is to have them fund the fight

again though, regulation will be the key, and i think that will be the uphill battle - it works with our other public service industries (power, phones, etc) - why not the health care system?

but i'm sure open to other ideas

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[Lonestar968]

If you want to see just how truly jacked up a public health care system can really be, check out what Canada has going on. While you're at it, check out Germany's and ...
well, you get the picture. I couldn't agree more Flash. Unless we collectively do something to stop Obama's "reform" plan, we're all screwed. And sooner than later!!!

I'm still looking for another country to live in and so far, it ain't looking good for the home team. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif[/img]

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[flash]

so many people pick on canada's system - they actually don't have it that bad - everybody i know says that, while it may take a while to see a specialist, regular care is actually quite easy - by the way, it's only 70% publicly funded

we are the only industrialized country in the world without some form of universal health care, and yet we spend more per capita than any other country - that tells it all

but, until we get a handle on the industry, and stop letting services charge whatever they want, we won't get anywhere, and half-baked ideas like obama's plan will only make things worse

i know you guys thought i would never slag a democrat, but i'm just shaking my head on this one

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[stewhatch]

I understand where you're coming from Flash. I was spoiled growing up in Canada: I NEVER saw a bill after a doctor's visit nor for any operative procedures. I simply plopped my medicare card down, they swiped it, and it was taken care of. I knew nothing of what was paid, how it was handled ... you get the idea. I've lived and experienced both sides of the fence so to speak, and to be truthful, both systems have their pluses and minuses. The level of care is about the same from what I have experienced. Living here, I can see a specialist much sooner, but at what cost? My mother had a complete knee replacement in Canada recently, and they asked her what day she wanted it done. Swiped her card and it was taken care of. Don't believe everything you read or hear about socialized health care in Canada. I've seen TV ads here in the US showing an actress portraying a Canadian decrying how the Medicare sytem failed her "up there" ... I could not believe the lies and that they could get away with an ad like that - it was 110% wrong and misleading. But everyone who saw that ad was lead to believe everything said was the absolute truth, and it was nowhere near accurate. It was a Noam Chomsky moment for me. I pay almost $900 a month for my health insurance, and after 6 yrs of never seeing a doctor went in for a simple blood test and received a bill for $350. This after 6 yrs of paying all that $$$ and never filing a claim. I can't remember what the total cost was, but you get the picture. I think the problem here is, socialized medecine would be run by Govt, and no-one trusts them. There is no panacea.

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[flash]

your experience is exactly what i have heard from everybody i have talked to who actually lived there - the propaganda machine here is in full force to protect the special interests

i don't know what the ultimate answer is, but i do know we have to first take away the motivation to cheat the system

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[94SilverCab]

Heres the history of our medicine.
"I have a sore throat."
2000 BC : "eat this root"
1200 AD : "That root is heathen, say this prayer."
1500 AD : "That prayer is superstition, drink this elixir."
1800 AD : "That elixir is snake oil, Take this pill."
1900 AD : "That pill is ineffective, Take this antibiotic."
2000 AD : "That antibiotic is artificial, Here why dont you eat this root."

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[rhudeboye]

Watch this movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/plotsummary

It's quite an eye opener.

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[gryphon]

If the adverse publicity is all propaganda, then why do I meet so many Canadians who are in Arizona specifically for health care treatment? (No, they are not snowbirds, here for the weather.)

I have a close friend who is a geriatric internist--20% of his practice are self-pay Canadians.

Tom

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[flash]

lol - lobbyist paid misinformation plants?

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[stewhatch]

I have a close friend who is a geriatric internist--20% of his practice are self-pay Canadians.

Tom
[/quote]

The answer IMO is in your question: geriatric. Older people simply fare better in warmer climes and can afford to move to a more comfortable area. And pay for health care; part of which might still be covered by the Canadian Govt as long as they maintain a residence in Canada. If they rent out their home, and move to AZ, they have Medicare covering a portion of their out-of-country medical expenses. Now I don't know what province these folks you mention come from, but from my home province, this holds true. One thing I have to mention is despite the size of Canada (4th or 5th largest country in the world?) there are more people living in the tri-state region (NY/NJ/CT) then the entire population of Canada. IIRC the last census counted 33 million in The Great White North. That's a pittance as far as a tax base is concerned, when compared to the population of the U.S. Sure, stuff costs more up there compared to here, but the money has to come from somewhere. I travel there all the time on business, and the hwys / roads are all in great shape and people live and eat and go to school / work OK. But once you retire, and have to live on a fixed income ie pension / RRSP / 401K then you start to look towards where you want to spend the rest of your life. You've seen the recent photos of snowmobiles on the roof, and 6 hr dig-outs just to make it out of your house. With all due respect you may not have any idea how bad the winters are in some northern areas - think of the recent storm in the northeast and then imagine that being the norm. Now imagine being 76 yrs old and having to deal with that every winter on a regular basis. I personally know of a number of Canadians that have retired and moved south. Their motives were purely for ease of lifestyle and to get as far away from the winters as possible. Some return in the summer & some don't. Not a wrong decision.

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[flash]

i've broken about 40 bones in my life, and just reading that description of the cold makes every one of them ache

thanks - i'll pass

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[stewhatch]

Who can blame you? I never gave it a second thought and it was as normal to me like rain is to you, but as you get older you learn to focus on those things that make life more comfortable and enjoyable. I guess that sorta explains my 968 in a nutshell!

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[flash]

funny how that works - i indeed tend to focus on things of comfort and have become less tolerant of things hat bug me

lol - i'm old and cranky and ready for my recliner

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[pbc1548]

As a Canadian who lives in Canada but has travelled to the States everyday to work for the past 15 yrs, I have to add my 2cents to the conversation. The fundamental difference between the 2 systems is that private health care is profit driven, while public health care is driven by universal access/medical need.

It is true that in Canada there may be some wait time to see a specialist. The time involved is completely dependant on medical need or urgency, not ability to pay. Serious conditions that require more immediate care/treatment are prioritized (sort of like triage). In other words, you may wait a few weeks to see a podiatrist for a hang nail, but if you have an irrgegular heart beat, you will see a heart specialist the next day. Based on personal experience dealing with 2 elderly parents who have had cancer in the past 5 years, and my father in-law who has had a doulbe hip replacement and a quad bypass during the same time period, this is what REALLY occurs in the public system. With 2 kids who are very active in competitive sports, I could add several other recent examples of recieiving timely/appropriate health care when necessary.

Which system is better really depends on ones value sytem and sense of social responsibility. For me, I can wait a few weeks to see a specialst for less serious conditions and don't mind paying a bit more in taxes (becasue i can) so that others less financially fortunate can recieve mediacal care when they need it.

I would only add use your common sense when you hear the political talkingheads refer to the atrocities of the public health care system in Canada - we are actually doing quite fine up here!

Hope it all works out. Paul

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[flash]

sounds like a pretty realistic and functional system to me

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