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Exhuast restriction, image, introduction
#21

[quote name='sayporsha' date='Nov 24 2005, 11:55 AM']Good thing the longitude/latitude weren't displayed on your GPS!



You Bet!



Is there a better way to cut that thing out?  I'm reluctant to take a torch to mine.  It would be ideal to divide the plate/perforated pipe into thirds, then cut the segments off near the flange & remove them one at a time.

[right][post="12764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





I was thinking about this last night and there are actually two ways to do the mod, 90% and 100%. The 90% mode would probably allow the use of a suitable hole saw to drill/cut out the diverter. Most likely the cutout would stay on the hole saw and save a lot of time trying to pull cut material out of the resonator.



The 90% route would for sure improve the gas flow in the resonator but would not increase the second chamber volume like doing the complete mod. I do think that increasing the chamber volume does benefit full throttle high RPM performance more than just cutting out the diverter. The lower the pressure in the resonator (or any muffler for that matter) the less restriction and most cases, more power. If someone were interested, they could measure the pressure in the resonator front chamber before and after by welding a fitting to the resonator can. I know the difference would be dramatic.



To cut the entire first chamber out requires additional work. I used a cutoff wheel, (actually two cutoff wheels that were ground down to fit inside the pipe, which wore them out very quickly) to make a cut in the circumference of the perforated tube in the first chamber and then an air chisel to push the tube and first chamber cap (which is welded to the perforated tube) to the back of the second chamber. From there it's pretty much a bend, cut, saw, burn process to reduce the pieces to something small enough to allow removal from the resonator inlet.





You have to realize that Porsche had very tight design constraints to muffle a very loud 4 valve high compression 4 banger. If you've ever heard an S2 or 968 engined racecar at full song, you'll know what I mean. They make a 911 with open exhaust sound streetable. Anyway, German mufflers are typically very large and there is simply no room on our cars for the usual rectangular "suitcase" sized boxes used by most German car makers. Look under a BMW or Cayenne and you'll see what I mean. The diverter was probably the only EASY way to drop the full throttle db levels without some major redesign work. I also think the power claimed by Porsche is SAE net, without an exhaust system, so this mod just moves you closer to claimed hp/tq.



I simply love the car with this modification. The engine sound is greatly improved and free revving nature of the engine is enhanced as well.



[Image: bits.jpg]
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#22

From the inlet pic it's hard to tell the depth to the plate. I was thinking that those of us without a torch could drill several holes in the plate using a carbide drill{?}.
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#23

ok - i went down to meet steve and to check out the mod and do the "car guy" thing



first, i'd like to say that steve is a very nice addition to this group - he brings a wealth of track experience and knowledge, and performance driven energy that is sure to help us wring out every last drop of oomph the car has to offer



now, on to the mod



there is a noticable tone change to the exhaust, though while sitting still, it's rather benign, with just a bit more low note resonance - open it up though, and you can tell there is something different - it's more open and a bit throatier - it's nothing loud like the open aftermarket exhaust systems, but nicer than stock



there is a definite throttle response improvement, and the car revs more freely, and is snappier - i would guess that there is some hp gain up top, though i would hesitate to say it was huge - it was more of an improved driveability thing - i noticed no torque loss - actually, it feels like about the same improvement and change as my current system - steve said he also noticed the same "flat" spot where i did too - it isn't big at all, and you really have to be paying attention to find it at all - it's just one of those things that guys like he and i will continue to hunt down until we get it right



this was a very cool thing for him to do, and it was very educational for me, since i am working on a new system for the car



the car moves well and is going to be a lot of fun for him - there is a lot of history behind it, and it was great hearing all about it - i look forward to his participation in the upcoming events



steve - thanks again for letting me blast it around, and it was fun seeing somebody else drive mine (sorry to have corrupted you)
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#24

Steve,



Do you think that a high speed DREMEL tool with a diamond cutoff wheel would cut through the mesh side sleeve that holds the plate?

If it could cut through the metal, will the sleeve and plate bend enough to be able to pull it through the opening?

I do not have access to a torch and after FLASH's butt o' meter test drive with you I am eager to remove the restriction plate.
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#25

[quote name='SILVY968' date='Nov 26 2005, 11:47 PM']Steve,



Do you think that a high speed DREMEL tool with a diamond cutoff wheel would cut through the mesh side sleeve that holds the plate?

If it could cut through the metal, will the sleeve and plate bend enough to be able to pull it through the opening?

I do not have access to a torch and after FLASH's butt o' meter test drive with you I am eager to remove the restriction plate.

[right][post="12837"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





The material in the first chamber of the resonator is tuff stuff. Cutting the perforated first chamber tube burned up two cutoff wheels, the stuff is that hard. It can be cut, but its not fast work. A Dremel is a little small for the task, but it may work, just have a few cutters handy.



I used an air powered die grinder with a abrasive cutoff wheel, but required the torch to cut the big pieces into smaller bits to get them out of the resonator. That was the biggest PITA of the project and where the torch came in handy. It will be very difficult to hold the pieces through the pipe opening and try to cut them up with a dremel or other cutting tool.



It was good to meet Flash and the mod's he's done on his car are neat. Now I have a new wish list for this car...thanks Flash! Anyone looking for an almost new dual mass flywheel for a 968?
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#26

lol - thanks - it was indeed fun - can't wait for track day - sorry about the wish list (but you're gonna love it)



post the part here with pics in the parts for sale section - it'll go in a hurry - seems somebody needs one every couple of months
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#27

[quote name='orphanowner' date='Nov 27 2005, 11:08 AM']Anyone looking for an almost new dual mass flywheel for a 968?[/quote]



Please email me... thanks!
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#28

So Steve....

From what you've seen - would drilling [mentioned above] be an option rather than completely removing the plate...?



I suppose I could also consider Bob's setup and fit a glass-pack instead....
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#29

playing with he resonator seems to have an effect on things, somme good, some maybe not - there is definitely a performance gain with both setups, but i think there is more on the table



i'm not so sure i'm ready to recommend my setup yet either - i have a theory that the louvres in the glass pack are doing the same kind of thing as removing the plate



they may be causing turbulence, or that the location or specific flow characteristics are changing the velocicity or pulse timing enough to create that torque anomoly - i have a couple more things to try and then dyno again first



at first blush it seems the plate in the factory resonator is purely for sound, but the coincidental torque characteristics or "flat spot" between removal of the plate and my setup make me wonder if there is a commonality



the hypothesis is that there may well be a pulse timing or scavenging thing that is going on here - it's a very odd condition that may be related to the resonant induction intake manifold and how it times things



a few tests should give me the answers - just stuck in scheduling right now trying to find out



again though, this has been very interesting and informative, and certainly the car runs better either way - i would just caution against running right out and whacking things up just yet
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#30

[quote name='flash' date='Nov 27 2005, 07:11 PM']playing with he resonator seems to have an effect on things, somme good, some maybe not ........., and certainly the car runs better either way - i would just caution against running right out and whacking things up just yet

[right][post="12861"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



This is directed at Mr. Orphanowner: Your conclusion about the modification is?
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#31

[quote name='Greimann' date='Nov 27 2005, 07:27 PM']This is directed at Mr. Orphanowner: Your conclusion about the modification is?

[right][post="12863"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





IMHO, this modification is a 100% success. The car feels more responsive, my testing shows more power and it sounds better. The diverter is SO restrictive that it simply has to be removed for the car to make more power. It is clear to me that the only purpose it serves is to reduce noise at WOT in upper RPM's. It is not a "tuning device".



I feel that the flat spot that Flash refers to is there in the car 100% stock as well. If this mod changes the perception of this flat spot, it's only because the power on either side of the dip is improved.



I like the way the car drives and sounds with this mod and I'd do it again. Dave, come by and check it out.
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#32

i know you didn't ask, but just to say why i came to that conclusion, or rather non-conclusion, and more a hesitation - it was not in any way being negative about steve's mod - i'm not knocking it at all - it does work - i liked it too



i just think there is still more left on the table



i don't know how to describe this, but the flat spot i am talking about is not a dip, or a loss, but really just a pause in rise - i have the same issue



his mod is a LOT of work, and i think it would be premature until a few more things are tried first to see if that little odd flat spot can be fixed, or if more power is available - it's the same reason behind my current hesitation in recommending my setup - i think there is more to be had there too



certainly everybody is entitled to do what they want, but i'm going to wait a bit longer to see what happens with a few other things first



i do happen to agree with steve's assessment of the mod - "I simply love the car with this modification. The engine sound is greatly improved and free revving nature of the engine is enhanced as well."



steve - again, thanks - great work
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#33

[quote name='flash' date='Nov 28 2005, 08:53 AM']i just think there is still more left on the table 

[right][post="12871"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

While you search for the crumbs with your custom system, for those of us with stock exhausts, there is a big drumstick staring us in the face, albeit with some quality time behind a torch and cutoff wheel.



Steve: don't forget to answer S_Cal968's question way above. It might have gotten buried.
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#34

that's fair, and certainly an option that is an improvement



my thought was though, that the stock exhaust has resale value (they actually do bring a fair amount - i sold mine in about 10 minutes) - once modified, it has no resale value



the cost of a custom setup is not that high, if it brings real gains



that being said, if you have a torch, are willing to spend the time, and have no interest in later selling your stock setup, and don't want to spend any money on an aftermarket setup, by all means do it - no harm no foul - you'll get gains



my hesitation has three points - a duplication of effort, net expenditure, and ultimate maximum gains



i am not one to do things halfway - "do it once, do it right, and don't go back" is more my thing - i've already had a lot of people asking me about my setup, and wanting to do it based on the small gains i see now - i have not recommended it because i don't want to see anybody spend the time and money on something that they might be less happy with than something else



i guess it's all about choices, once again - pretty cool stuff though



to pete's question, for the same reason i am still pursuing a better setup myself, i don't think drilling will work well - turbulence - i think that unless you remove it all, you will get interrupted flow
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#35

Interesting comments gentlemen!

With the #69 car-we ran separate dyno runs with the stock header/down pipe versus a custom header and found similar bph/torque values-except that the custom header made the power higher in the rpm range-where the car is in race conditions.

Have had multiple exhaust failures at the track-weld failures, metal fatigue failures. These have been corrected by using "slip joints" between sections rather than hard welds. The failures all appear to be vibration related.

Gary
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#36

To answer S_Cal968's question



"So Steve....

From what you've seen - would drilling [mentioned above] be an option rather than completely removing the plate...?"




I really believe you want the plate removed. I think the hole saw idea may work the best. With the plate swiss-cheesed and not cut out, you probably will relieve some pressure, but the flow will not equal having the plate removed entirely.
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#37

Thanks 4 the responses... [perhaps I should include a pic like everyone else so I'll be noticed...] <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

I agree the best idea is to remove the plate, but I don't have a torch or saws-all. I guess I'll have to get creative. It must not be to deep if a hole-saw can be used.

I'm not doing anything just yet, I'm waiting until I source a short-shift linkage.
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#38

give chris at Speed 6 a buzz - he had them the last time i talked to him
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#39

[quote name='orphanowner' date='Nov 28 2005, 08:31 AM']IMHO, this modification is a 100% success.

[right][post="12870"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

That makes two of us! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> After hearing and driving the car I can say this is a winner. The sound is still quieter than an aftermarket catback and no torque loss that can be a problem with big pipes.



The drawback is the difficulty in doing it. When I get around to doing mine, I'll try the hole saw thing to get the process started. A competent custom exhaust shop with a plasma cutter may also be able to do this, but the alloy is one tough sumbitch.
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#40

    I agree that the resonator is restrictive. I went the route of gutting the stock one at first seeeing the opportunity to gain some power and noise at minimal cost.. But it is a pain and I'm not sure of longevity. The restrictor plates also hold the guts together.

I was developing a cat back at the same time that gave hp and sound with lighter weight and improved looks. The downside is cost. It's hard to get the best of everything without removing, replacing or redesigning.

Pete
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