[bibbetson]

I know this is a really big question with many, many variables but here it goes...



For all you 968 racers out there, what do you think about building and campaigning a 968 in club racing events?



I'm interested in building a car that is primarily a track car, but still street legal. My idea is something like a Club Sport - hopefully a little lighter.



I currently own a '94 968 coupe that I have driven at San Diego autocrosses for the past four years (SCCA in a Nissan for 6 years before that). I have always been very successful with the car winning first or second in class every year. My car currently has most of the standard bolt on upgrades (springs, struts, sway bars, LSD, etc) and I run in the top 10 every week. It's a very well sorted street car with full interior and weighing in at a stout 3150 pounds. I give this background so you know that I'm not a stranger to racing.



I have started driving local Time Trial events and am looking to step it up. The problem is that the car is just too nice to tear apart or track seriously. Last year it won first in class and second in division at our local concours.



Some questions:

- How competitive is the 968 at bigger tracks. It seems like the regulars to this forum are doing well, but are there comparable cars that you just can't catch in your class (951, 964, etc)?

- Is a M030 chassis worth looking for? The M030 mostly interests me because of the additional chassis stiffening that it received, I know I would likely replace all the standard suspension items.

- Another option is to build a 951, any comments? I love the uniqueness and looks of the 968 but I don't know if it's quite as flexible for the track as the 951.

- Based on my research, the cost of building a 968 should be very comparable to a 951 except maybe the initial car purchase.



Thanks for any insight you have.

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[Charles Geer]

I have hada few great Porsches but non compare to the relatively unknown 968. Only the Cayman will undermind it's track potential.



The 968 is as fast as...maybe a little faster than a E36 (1996 - 1999) M3 on the straight aways. It will probably even keep pace with a 964 while yet loosing just over 2 or 3 car links to a 993 on the average long straight at american tracks.

But it will out brake even the newest of 911's. It will out turn the best of the M3's.

In club racing most of us run in f stock which has a minimum weight restriction of 3086 lbs. You car needs to remain stock to meet the qualifications for the class (so don't go modification crazy). Invest in a good suspension....The best you can find... If you have not spent $4000 you've not gone far enough (Leda, Olin, Penske, KW, Motons are suspension manufactures that need to be at the for front of any 968 racers roladex).



On a sloppy suspension your 968 will be slow. The more corner speed you can carry, the higher the sweet spot on the engine rev counter you will be. This is a car to be abused. It rewards the guys who never fall below 5200 rpm. It penalizes the guys who do. This is why it is crucial to invest in a good dampaners...but then again you did say you would need to keep it somewhat of a street car (good luck with that).



Mo30 is good.

Brakes, Limited Slip, adjustable baseball bat sway bars are all that makes this car so great. The shocks.....through them away and refer to the above paragraph...but then again you did say you would need to keep it somewhat of a street car (good luck with that).



My next race will be at Road Atlanta in August at a NASA race. Might call me a fool to race against 400hp Corvette z06 racecars and 300hp M3's. I will shed 300 lbs from my club race weight and carry the 968 flag into battle. I don't think they will even notice me on the grid...I'll let you know how i do.

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[Eric_K]

If you are thinking of building a car you should figure out what organization & class you want to run with. It will make quite a difference in what mods you can do with the car.



If you want it to stay street legal then PCA Stock class is a good bet. The 968 does quite well in F stock but you won't be able to run the car light. Most of the info you need is on their website: http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/index.htm



There are other racing groups in California that you could also check out. The Porsche Owners Club (POC) has its own race group. http://www.porscheclub.com



There is also the Porsche Racing Club (PRC) but I think they run mostly in N. Cal.

http://www.porscheracingclub.com



There are also regional classes (like ITE) in SCCA & NASA which you could run in. These are usually pretty wide open with all kinds of different cars running. You'll always be on the track with something really fast.



The other thing you could check out is NASA 944 spec racing. Save the nice car for the street and beat on a cheaper 944. http://www.944spec.com/ For fun in racing it doesn't really matter how fast you are going as long as there are a few (or a bunch) of other cars going the same speed.



Charles - you'll find the 968 will hold its own in those kind of groups. You won't be the fastest and you'll be wishing for more horsepower but it'll be fun.



Eric

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[bibbetson]

Thanks for the feedback Charles and Eric,



I've thought long and hard about 944 spec as there is a good following for that group in SoCal. I'm just worried about out growing it really quickly. Tim Comeau in San Diego does a lot with the 944 spec group and offers arrive and drive some times. I might look into do that for an event to see how I like it.



I'm looking for good competition without being an underdog. I'm spoiled in San Diego because there is a group of 5 in my KP class of excellent drivers that battle it out ever AX weekend (RSA's, one 951 and me). As much as I don't want it to, this also is playing into my decision because I am having so much fun driving with that group. You should see how mad it makes a 300hp, 2700 lb RSA being beat by a fully optioned, shiny 968. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Charles, thanks for your insight on the competitiveness of the 968. I agree, depending on the class and track. However, I have little experience on big tracks against other manufacturers. I'm very aware of the street / track issue. I wouldn't be looking for something that is streetable, just street legal. Capable of driving to an event and back.



Anyone know of any 968 race cars for sale?

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[SANDOVAL]

Posted on the PCA website on 06/05



Ad Information



Category: For Sale



Ad Number: 1467



Date Posted: 06/23/2005



Features



Price: $45,000



Year: 1994



Model: 968 Firehawk Champion



Miles: 15,500



Body Type: Coupe



Color (Exterior): Original Red Livery



Color (Interior): Black





Text of Online Ad



This is the car that David Murry and Boris Said drove to the 1994 IMSA Firehawk Championship and 2nd place in the Porsche Cup.



Dominated the GS class in Firehawk, beating factory Pontiacs in 5 of the 8 races. All races covered on ESPN - a tape of the races goes with the car along with an extensive set of documentation/provenance. (Porschesport 94, newspaper clippings, Pano, photos of build, etc)



One of the most successful and historic 968s extant.



Car is a winning PCA "E" class car and as it is in original livery of the championship season can be HSR raced, etc. Race, collect and win!



Car has always been professionally maintained, is relatively inexpensive to run, and fantastic to drive.



Price includes solid 1998 Maclander trailer. Call or email for more info or pictures.

Seller Information



Type of Seller: Private Seller



Company:



Name: PAUL J WIBLE



Street Address: 2330 W. Belmont



City: Chicago



State/Province: IL



Zip/Postal Code: USA



Country:



Telephone Number: 312-543-3498 Cell

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[SANDOVAL]

Race Prepped 968



Price: 26,500



Year: 1992



Model: 968



Miles: 126,000



Body Type: Coupe



Color (Exterior): Sliver/Grn



Color (Interior): Tan





Text of Online Ad



A track car offered at the price of the mods. 1992 968 Race prepped with 28k in mods: Safety Devices roll cage, new 5 pt harnesses, upg suspension, BigRds, exhaust, BattKill, Momo suede steering wheel, new Sparco Pro 2000 seats, lap timer, camera mount, easliy removable interior pieces, lexan quarter windows, fiberglass hatch avail. 126k mi, PCA owners. Receipts kept. Well-balanced and low-maintenance vehicle allows you to enjoy and spend more $$ on the fun stuff! Posting photo shortly.

Seller Information



Type of Seller: Private Seller



Company:



Name: LAURA POFFENBERGER



Street Address:



City: Atlanta



State/Province: GA



Zip/Postal Code: 30328



Country: USA







No email or phone number just an internal "reply to this ad link" If you are a PCA member you can check it out in the PCA Mart.



http://www.pca.org/mart/classifieds.pl?db=...query=retrieval

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[Clem]

Hmmm, Ray's car?

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[Graham]

Driving to an event and back is a bit of a risk.



Just in case something goes wrong and god forbid it gets bent by someone else.



In my opinion...use a trailer just in case and don't limit the cars track potential



Feel free to disagree but in my opinion it is better to be prepared



Wiring loom sort-out today



Graham

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[Jason Judd]

I agree about the trailer...



Also, there's nothing quite like driving home (from 2 days at the track) in your Land Yacht-SUV...with those big Living Room seats and the A/C on with some nice music going through the stereo.



What a great way to relax after getting bumped, jostled and shaken, not stirred, at the track.



Now if I had a co-pilot that could safely drive the trailered car, that would allow me to take a nap, too!



Jason

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[bibbetson]

[quote name='Clem' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:31 PM']Hmmm, Ray's car?

[right][post="7337"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Yes, this was Ray's car previously. Anyone know anything about it, especially any experience with it (or against it) on the track?

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[Eric_K]

I've thought long and hard about 944 spec as there is a good following for that group in SoCal. I'm just worried about out growing it really quickly.

You may out grow 944Spec, but wheel to wheel racing is an acquired skill that requires a lot of practice to be good at. Doing a season (or even renting a car for a few races) would teach you a lot. A 944 doesn't have enough power to mask poor driving - it will force you to be a good driver. The more experience you have the better. You will be better educated on what to look for in a car and a series to run with.



Eric

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[Eric_K]

Yes, this was Ray's car previously. Anyone know anything about it, especially any experience with it (or against it) on the track?

What organization/class would it run in? That would determine if it would competitive. From the desc. it sounds like it would it be GT3S in PCA. A stock engined 968 is not competitive in GT3.



Eric

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[bibbetson]

The car is almost an F stock car with a few exceptions: Add A/C, replace lexan quarter windows, remove big reds and verify minimum weight. The GT LSD might also have to be replaced, although I don't think this mod would change lap times measurably. It runs 1:46s at Road Atlanta and 1:26s at Roebling Road on Victoracers. From what I can find, these are about middle of the pack times. At this point, these times are hard to quantify because I don't know either of those tracks and how the above modifications would effect the times. Nor do I know the experience of the drivers.



On the west coast I would run in local PCA SDR events (autocross and time trial) and with POC. This car, with some possible adjustments for weight, would run in KP for San Diego events and JP for POC.



BTW: I completely agree with the trailering comments for all the same reasons stated. The drive it to the events comment is intended for local autocrosses and club events within 20 miles of home.



Charles, this car appears to be in your neck of the woods. Have you ever run into it?

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[mikew968]

Jus this year I started to turn my 968 into a track car. I also just ran my first race this last weekend at putnam Park. The 2nd and 3rd place drivers were in 968's against a semi pro driver in a very fast 911. The 968 has been a great car to learn in and as they say after racing DE and A-X will never quite be the same!!!!!!





Mike

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[Eric_K]

Congrats Mike.



You are right DE will never be the same for you. After a couple years of racing it feels like even the fast group in DE are not going so quick. And you'll have to fight the urge to outbrake and pass in the corners! I remember when I started DE how fast the advanced/instructor group seemed. Not any more.



Eric

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[Jason Judd]

Eric and Mike



It's funny you mention the difference between racing and DE's; specifically the feeling of going fast...



Recently I completed the PCA instructor program and was allowed to run in the Red run group once. The difference I felt from my current Black run group was significant.



I can't imagine what it would be like to go from where I am currently and try racing. From what you're saying, it sounds like I would be jumping the equivalent of 2 run groups!



Does it make more sense to further progress to the Red run group level and then move over?



Jason

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[Eric_K]

I think the main differences in the upper DE run groups is the amount of speed carried thru the corners. It just takes experience to get comfortable with the amount of speed you (and the car) can take through a corner. The difference to racing is that you learn to carry that speed when taking different lines though the corner and doing it side by side. Plus you go 10/10ths almost all of the time. Your 8-9/10ths speed at DE gets ratcheted up to whole new level.



I think you are ready to race if you can drive as fast as you can without having to think about what you are doing - braking, shifting and the line should just happen. You need your brain processing power to be aware of what is happening around you. Situational awareness and consistency are real important.



Eric

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[mikew968]

Like Eric says racing is about a lot more than just going fast although that is still important. I found myself in so many different places on the track that I have never been before. Going through 1, 2, 3, or even 4 corners side by side is an incredible experience!!!! In my first race there were two situations in the first few laps where I had to take immediate action to avoid a number of cars that had spun. While this does happen in DE it was pretty "hairy" and happens more often.



Mike

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[Dave]

On the subject of dual-purpose race/street car... This is the same path I have taken (for better or worse - As Charles says "good luck with that").



I took a bone-stock '92 and upgraded suspension (read - obnoxious spring rates, adjustable shocks, spherical bearings all around), but still drive it on the street. That wasn't so bad as I don't mind a pretty stiff car, even with a race shell for a seat.



But once you put a full cage in... Now, that's proving to be a different story. I don't mind it personally (I still drive it to the office, airport, etc. - just like any other daily driver), but the passengers start to become less happy (climbing over door bars, complete lack of rear seat, proximity of padded cage bars to people).



I am still clinging to this romantic notion of "drive it to the track, race it, drive it home", but I have gone ahead and put a 3rd car in the garage. It may become less likely that I will mount the snows this year and try to negotiate Chicago winters with it, but we'll see.



The dual-purpose car can be done, but it's a compromise.



I'll let you know how it all plays out after the next set of club races and as we head into the fall.



On the M030 set-up - Tough to find a car with that option, I agree with Charles. It's a better spend of your dollars to do a real race suspension versus replicating the M030. Good adjustable shocks help. I am convinced I could run twice the obnoxious spring rates I run now as long as one has good adjustable shocks to maintain a bit of compliance.



Hope this helps.

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