[Langley968]

I find is amazing (from a Canadian point of view...) that, even though there is a heading "The Political Arena" under Lifestyle topics, that NOT ONE American 968 member has commented here about the current American presidential campaign. It may be the desire of most here, to leave that topic out of this "car forum", but since the heading is available, I will make use of it...



I watched some of the speeches given last week at the Republican Convention and also this week some of the speeches given at the Democratic Convention.

Some points:

* why the "fearmongering" about a successful businessman having "made it good" in America? I always thought America was, by and large, "free market" capitalists. You start to wonder...

* although I have never been a Clinton "fan", I was impressed with his oratorial skills this time round, YET amazed at how the facts can be "manipulated" to push one's agenda...

* I have always liked Clint Eastwood, but his speech "went south" when he dragged it on. That could NOT have been helpful to the GOP... The "left leaning" TV media blew it up WAY MORE right after the speech than the print media did the following day...

* as someone that was given up for adoption at birth (and as a result blessed with the great parents), it never ceases to amaze me that the discussion around "fertility choices" completely discards any viewpoint from the "child's" perspective. So... had I been conceived in this more advance (enlightened) age some like to think we are currently living in, there is a very good chance we would not be "speaking" to each other at this moment! Hum... am I to view myself as "less" of a human being than those around me? We live in a very self-centered and egotistic society, and that not only shows itself in the financial arena, but also in this area of life...



Will someone "bite" now that this has been posted? Wondering...



(If you read through this, you probably can sense what my political / social / fiscal position is)

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[Lear35A]

I am glad there is little/no political content on this forum. I do a bunch of aviation forums that have political threads, and I find them very "un useful". Nobody, but nobody changes their political stripes as a result of reading someone's diatribe on a forum. If you want to throw political stuff around, go to a political forum. Leave car forums to cars, aviation forums to flying, etc.



However, I will bite with one comment. Right now it's all about power, money and ego. There is virtually nothing in the trash talk that's going on now that cares less about the American people. Too bad. It is a great country.

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, I'll bite, but only a little. I think the lack of commentary on the subject of politics may stem from a general lack of faith that anything that happens in Washington can really have much impact on most peoples' day-to-day lives. Does anybody seriously believe that the country would be better off today if McCain had won the last election? Or that the economy wouldn't have fallen off a cliff if only Obama (or Clinton, or Reagan, or Abraham Lincoln) were in office in 2008? That, and an overall disgust with so much of the crap that comes out of the mouths of politicans from both parties. Is there anything more sickening to watch/listen to than a political ad, for example? I'm not the world's biggest sprots fan, but I suddenly take an inexplicable interest in baseball and football during election years - anything to divert my attention from those pathetic rigth/left so-called "news" cable channels. And I agree with Lear that political debate never changes anybody's mind, anyway.

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[tamathumper]

why the "fearmongering" about a successful businessman having "made it good" in America? I always thought America was, by and large, "free market" capitalists. You start to wonder...

Make no mistake, America punishes success. There's a class warfare in America between two camps - "Those With Something to Lose", and "Those With Nothing to Lose", and the camps aren't defined in financial terms because there are a lot of rich people with nothing to lose, and young kids with aspirations who feel they have everything to lose.



When the two camps overlap, that's when trouble begins - are you doing OK financially and you have some nice things, then you hire a contractor and he brings some pretty shady characters to work on your house? Three months later your garage is broken into and your tools are stolen - there's an intersection of "Something to Losers" with "Nothing to Losers".



[color="#282828"]Much of the strife between parents and adolescents is caused by the parents having an emotional and financial investment in their children, whereas the kids have no skin in the game yet (no job, no mortgage, no physical possessions) - another intersection of "Somethings and Nothings"...[/color]



Our current political landscape right now is based on fanning the flames of anger between the two camps.

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[Cloud9...68]

There's another very practical reason so many Americans are apathetic about the election - with our electoral college system of choosing a president, unless you live in one of the handful of "swing states", your vote doesn't matter, for all intents and purposes. So, if you live in California, Texas, the Pacific Norhtwest, New England, any of the southern states other than Florida, and a slew of others, where a large percentage of American 968 owners live, it's hard to get very excited about the election.

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[Rap]

Cloud a heck of a lot of soldiers have died to preserve our right and privilege to vote. When barely 50 percent of the populace votes on a regular basis it takes only 26 percent to win. Langley we have had this discussion before and it was one of the things that prompted the expansion in topics. Tama is right class warfare has become the political ideology of one party with the emphasis on equal distribution. This is merely code for the expansion of the entitlement state. Soon or or later you will run out of enough workers and those whose taxes can be raised, that's when the tsunami comes. I'm watching the cutback of dollars to fund social services. The need continues and grows. So less dollars spread among less people. I hear of closing of unemployment call centers. So if your unemployed but can't sign up then you don't get counted as unemployed. Cutbacks in Medicaid sign ups centers. So it takes longer, the wait list gets longer but less people receive the services and are even counted. All of this hides the true numbers. Today the job creation number for August was lower than forecast. The unemployment rate went from 8.3 to 8.1. Good news! No just more people have stopped looking. No longer counted. Term limits and the elected get the same benefits the rest of us do. Time to reign in the ruling aristocracy!

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1347055118' post='132311']

Cloud a heck of a lot of soldiers have died to preserve our right and privilege to vote.

[/quote]

I understand that, and I always vote (at least in the national elections). But it is depressing that if you don't happen to live in a swing state, your vote, in practical terms, means little to nothing. I think this fact is part of why voter turnouts in this country tend to be so low, but I'm sure there are many other reasons as well.

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[tamathumper]

Instead of unemployment, which can be gamed, (I've heard the actual number is over 15%?!), how come we don't track employment?

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[flash]

this one is really pretty much a no brainer. every time we have a republican regime we get a lot of defense jobs, and things "seem" better, but we always lose middle class ground. programs are cancelled and the separation between the rich and poor gets wider.



taxes need to go up on the rich. that's obvious. i take advantage of the same things they do, and resultantly do quite well, and pay a lot less percentage in taxes than the average american. while i'm not inclined nor wish to pay more, it still just isn't fair to the little guy.



as for soldiers dying to defend our right to vote, let's be real here. they are dying to protect our right to drive cars. our right to vote has not been an issue, nor has the real security of this country, for decades. it has been all about our conveniences, and maintaining the existing infrastructures. if we would just bite the bullet, we would not need anything outside this country in the way of resources. we have the ability to be self supporting, but not the will. we have become a lazy consumer culture, dependent on everyone else to make and do everything for us. it's not the democrats that have become the elitists, it's the republicans.



further, we can no longer afford to focus on our own interests. we have to consider what will be going on long after we are dead. what we do now will affect the entire planet for the rest of time. what the republicans want to do is to return things to how they were in the 50's. as mom and apple pie as that might sound, it's naive to think it is sustainable anymore. but what do they care? as long as they get to make money, it's just fine. let the next bunch worry about the rest. it's exactly that kind of thinking that screwed us with reagan, and then again with bush. can we really afford to let it happen again?



let's not even get started with allowing those who would never use it, setting policy on what a woman does with her choice on birth control. nobody is forcing anybody to get an abortion. nobody is telling anybody that they should get one. nobody is even telling anybody else that they should not be allowed to have discussions with an individual about it. but she deserves the right to choose for herself.



i'm no fan of obama, and i think has made mistakes and has not been particularly effective. but, romney scares the begeezus out of me, and if he died and left us with ryan, we're screwed.



i think repealing the term limit amendment and re-electing clinton makes more sense than either one of our current choices



we also need a flat tax rate and a balanced budget amendment



why can't we have "none of the above?" as a choice, canceling out a vote for both candidates

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[ds968]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1347066130' post='132324']

as for soldiers dying to defend our right to vote, let's be real here. they are dying to protect our right to drive cars. our right to vote has not been an issue, nor has the real security of this country, for decades. it has been all about our conveniences, and maintaining the existing infrastructures. if we would just bite the bullet, we would not need anything outside this country in the way of resources. we have the ability to be self supporting, but not the will. we have become a lazy consumer culture, dependent on everyone else to make and do everything for us. it's not the democrats that have become the elitists, it's the republicans.

[/quote]



Could not agree more ! And Bob ( RAP ) with all due respect, not a single soldier has died in order to

preserve or rights and the freedoms we enjoy, they have been sent to slaughter in order simply satisfy the small minds and overcompensate for the small dicks of our government officials ( of both parties ) for either a political or an economic gain. Whilst I have the highest respect and admiration for any and

all individual members of our armed forces, and the sacrifices they make, the need for large scale wars outside our borders, using ground troops, seems entirely unnecessary IMO.. Protect our borders , yes

by all means.. but send troops anywhere else under the pretense or belief that it preserves American

freedom.. hogwash ! Sorry, that's just propaganda and pure nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete pacifist, I just can't stand seeing Americans die in vain. Solution : ICBMs !



And not one single person can make the least bit of a difference in Washington, President or not - the entire political system needs an overhaul, the two party system eliminated, term limits imposed, flat tax rate, etc, etc..



Ok, enough of my rant - we also need free wine for every American citizen added to the Bill of Rights.. I'm starting right now <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/beer.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[WJH]

Oh man, I've read this thread and I wish it would die. I love my car and coming here to get good info. I don't want to discuss politics with you guys - I can see we wouldn't agree. I'm going to stick to the car side of this forum.

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[Lear35A]

Must stop reading this thread. Must stop reading this thread. Must stop reading this thread.



We are united as 968 owners. This is the stuff that could see the growth of this forum come to a grinding halt.



Moderators/administrators this Supporter says end the "Political Arena" now.

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[Rap]

If you don't want to read the thread just don't read it! Tama I think they do track employment although it's doubtful it's accurate. Anyone lose any relatives at Pearl Harbour or doesn't it count because it's an island? The only reason we really don't have to protect our borders is because of our military might. Although if one doesn't think that drugs coming in from the south are a form of warfare and or an attempt to gain financially by economically and morally corrupting our population, then you need to think about it's destabilizing effects. I see it everyday and it makes me wonder if we will be able to sustain our society in the future. Our right to vote has only not been an issue for decades because of the first two world wars which eliminated the constant warfare in most of Europe and kept Japan from overrunning China. Does anyone really think that given the opportunity that China wouldn't try to expand the middle kingdom? If soldiers are dying to defend our way of life (driving cars and everything else) whats wrong with that. Would we really want a world ruled by the radical Muslim faith which doesn't recognize infidels? 968 owners. There are lots of things wrong with us but it's interesting that everyone wants to come here to enjoy our freedoms, our education, safety of our financial system- yes I know that somewhat strains the imagination- but whenever there is a problem there is a flight to our securities. Why do so many foreigners invest there money in our real estate? It's called the rule of law and physical safety. We are a global economy like it or not. The depression in the 30's was part of a result of our retreating back upon our shores thinking we could be self sustainable. I always enjoy these lighthearted conversations. Where's the guy that started this? Lol

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[Byte]

Haven't tried to verify this but, recently I heard a fact that food stamps utilization is at an all time high at +51% from 4 years ago. Kinda cool right? What is there to get hyped about. More of the same. Why not just make it a campaign slogan. More of the same! Yeah!

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[flash]

i don't thin anybody disagrees that there are programs that just don't work. i have some pet gripes about a lot of them. i feel we should get something in return for any assistance program, whether that be work, or a better trained employable person.



something to remember is that if we do not support and build the middle class, the upper class will have nobody to buy their stuff or give them the life they want. it is incredibly shortsighted to ignore those who would be consumers. that's how the kingdoms of days gone by were overthrown.



i don't want government up my butt or over my shoulder any more than the next guy. nor do i want to give anybody a free ride. but we need to facilitate the prosperity of the middle class. it is the responsibility of the upper class to see to that. who do you think got you there?



as for this area, it is incredibly important that political topics are discussed openly. that is what makes for progress. living in a bubble makes for ignorance. only through talking and exchange can anyone learn anything. this area will remain open as long as the discussions are civilized. i see no reason for them to be anything other than that either. i don't think anybody here is so closed minded and ignorant as to just stamp their feet and walk away because somebody doesn't agree with them. make the argument. persuade somebody to your position. that's what democracy is all about.

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[968Syncro]

Ha, Ha, Ha -- Oh man, I've never read such repetitive stuff in my whole life. Everybody is just repeating what they've heard from our politicians and the media. I can't believe people are actually debating the issues that don't matter, it is OK, you were trained think these meaningless issues are important.



The problem with the United States: There is nothing to believe in anymore! Nobody knows what the US stands for! Nothing. The US stands for nothing, at all.



The result is: it is now every man for himself. Read the fine print above in all the these "important" issues. None of them matter. And so people digress to economics -- yeah! We have nothing to pursue as a nation, but money is always a good thing, so let's go get that.



Sad part: so many other countries have a plan, and are working on it, and have happy populations. The US repeatedly ranks in the lower portion of developed counties in satisfied and happy people. The reason the US can't change is..... you tell me. As an immigrant, I can't understand why the US is so self destructive.



On the upside, it may be good news. Nationalism is on the decline, countries cooperate more these days, death by war and crime is way down (more than you know), the world is evolving and in many ways is leaving the US behind. The US may not be the best at everything anymore! Oh horrors, we are in shock! Terrified! Frozen! How come the world doesn't see it our way -- we like our power! The answer is we better change, or some change which we cannot control will appear.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Oh boy, I wondered when some one was finally gonna go here. There is no democracy in America. There is no longer a republic. This is a two party dictatorship, fueled by corporatism. Romney, and Obama are funded by the same people, they serve the same interests. They are just puppets, part of a dog and pony show designed to keep you distracted. Just follow the money, it tells the whole story. Our candidates are selected, not elected. Romney will not win in November. If the GOP really wanted to win, Paul would have the nom. Of course their current puppet hasnt finished his 8 years. LOL, Romney....he doesnt have a chance. Mark my words, and I will eat them in November if I am wrong. Obama will win...the fix is in. Thanks diebold.



"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)



I didnt know democracy could be scripted...case in point:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKaXqoC4DjE&list=UU1h3bqESVdqkwm123Ce4ZmA&index=3&feature=plcp[/media]





And the dems....

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmaE2Aez_XY&list=UU1h3bqESVdqkwm123Ce4ZmA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]

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[Monstrous4Banger]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B39W91O-rUg&list=FLwRPzb_qoMvecRv4hyhw6rA&index=1&feature=plpp_video[/media]

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[Chris Vais]

As a general rule I decline to discuss politics and this is a car forum.



I will say that I am disappointed that so few Americans actually exercise their right to vote. I served and fought in the most unpopular war this country has ever engaged in. The only thing we were fighting for was our comrades in arms. North Viet Nam was never, at any time, a threat to the security of this country, your right to vote, or your right to drive the car of your choice. Some of the wars that we have been engaged in since Viet Nam are no different. The first Gulf War was all about maintaining access to oil, Iraq was all about "Dubya's" vendetta. The Afghanistan War is, to my mind, the only legitimate war since WWII and Korea. It is indeed, too bad that we took our eye off the ball to chase imaginary WMD's in Iraq and spent 13 years in Afghanistan.



I think that Clinton got it right the other night in his speech at the DNC, no President, not Obama, not Clinton, not Bush senior, and not Reagan could have undone the mess that the "Dubya" created. I don't see the "Way Back Team" has any answers with respect to the economic situation. Their plan is mathematically impossible. As Clinton pointed out, they forgot their arithmetic.



I don't need the religious right wing extremists, that seem to control the Republican party, to social engineer this country. I don't support abortion as a method of birth control, but I'll gladly defend any women's choice to decide how she chooses to manage her reproductive health. I support the right of any person to marry the person of their choice. I am dismayed to see the concerted effort being made by the Republican Party to deny the right to vote to minorities and young people in Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia. What is up with that, a throwback to the 60's? If you missed Rep. John Lewis' brief speech on this issue, go find it on the net and listen. Don't know who John Lewis is, then it is time you learned.



Does the current President have all the answers, probably not, is he on the right track, yes. Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive. The war in Iraq is over and the the war in Afghanistan is about to end, and he did save the US auto industry, created 4.5 million new jobs, and in doing so preserved a goodly number of jobs as well.



As for health care, I was laid off of a job that I held for 27.5 years. I still have not found a new job. Our health care is currently provided through COBRA. It costs me more than what some of you probably pay per month for your house payment. My wife has an intercranial tumor that would make her uninsurable. The new health care law makes it possible for her to have health care insurance.

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[ds968]

Reading Chris's post I'm thinking that we must have been twins separated at birth. Of course I am the far better looking twin ( and the much younger one ...what ?! ) but I digress.. Although we have several non-car topics open for discussion on this forum, I

do think that politics or religion debates, as civilized / respectful as we might maintain the discussion, may introduce some unnecessary friction to the unparalleled bond we share; perhaps we should refrain from topics that can be so personal and sensitive to so many people. Particularly where we're not going to solve anything no matter how much we discuss it.. Sigh.

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