[Lear35A]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1347075307' post='132332']

If you don't want to read the thread just don't read it![/quote]

"Mr. Jones, how's your cancer? Are you going to have it taken out?"

"Oh, Mr. Smith, I don't pay attention to that part of my body. I pretend it's not there."



It is my opinion and observation that these things always start out "civilized" as Flash wants them to be. I guarantee that sooner or later (and probably sooner) there will be a personal attack. And then a counter attack. I guarantee it. The slope is steep, and it is slippery.



I violently disagree with certain previous posts. It doesn't matter which ones. They do not change my position. Nor would anything I post about my position change anyone on the other side.



There are plenty of places such discources can take place where they are useful (maybe) and wanted. A 968 forum is not one of those. I disagree that "Political Arena" should stay open. There is NO upside to continuing it. I care about this forum.

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[tamathumper]

I, for one, believe we should get rid of polarizing topics like religion, politics, abortion, drugs and firearms. Civil or not, there's the huge opportunity to make offense on a topic that has nothing at all to do with what binds us. Besides, none of you want to hear what I have to say on those topics, and you're not going to change my mind either.



If I want to get really pissed off about any of those things, I'll go talk to my sister-in-law. Oh wait, we're not on speaking terms because she's an idiot. See?



I'd rather not stray into that territory with my 968 bros (and whatever the term is for the few ladies here that's equivalent to "bros").



Just sayin'.



P.S. Monstrous4Banger, thank you for posting those videos, I watched them all in their entirety. My wife was eye-rolling and "ugh-ing" through them so I had to watch them a second time to give them complete focus. I think they ruined my day, because as evil as that was, my wife made it clear that people just don't *care* about it. I think we are doomed...

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[Cloud9...68]

Lear and Tama,



I agree with you guys 100%. While I certainly don't advocate censorship, and I enjoy debating politics in the appropriate venue as much as the next guy, I agree that a car forum isn't the right place for it. There just isn't any upside to it.

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[lbpesq]

My 968 has done more for my soul than any politician ... ever.

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[Rap]

So we are going to agree that a Canadian is correct about we 968 owners? Not me. If we can't have civilized debate, good lord what does that say about us? There is very little that I have read that I agree with, very little. That said I have tempered my remarks as I think we all do and hope others will also. Again, if the thread offends, upsets or tempts you to slide into rudeness , don't read it. We have had spirited discussions before with strong varying opinions. Many of those I shook my head in disbelief at. But I respect people's right to their opinions and their right to express them. Without of course being attacked or criticized for having that opinion. I vote to keep the political thread and discussions. I just wish that all of you would seriously reflect upon and understand that you should agree with my opinion even if it means changing your own! And that dear bro's should be the extent of digressing. This was tongue in cheek and my lame attempt at dry sardonic humor for those who have not yet had the pleasure of meeting me. Pleasure indeed they say !!! Lol

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[Lear35A]

No Rap, the only thing we (at least three so far) agree is that this isn't the place to do non automotive debate. There's plenty of that available elsewhere. Let this be an oasis for 968 discussion...like my exasperation at installing the D1R firewall brace this afternoon.

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[Rap]

So your suggesting the lifestyle section be removed?

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[Lear35A]

No, what I requested, twice, was that the Political Arena be removed. That's all. (Although if the Admins decide to add Sex and Religion areas, I would be against those too. Same reasoning.)

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[ds968]

" your suggesting the lifestyle section be removed? "

can't speak for anyone else, but persih the thought ! - how else would we talk about watches, shoes, wine, women, and all the other fine things in life without that section ? I think it's just a couple of subject matters which might be, by their nature , too polarizing to include in the mix...IMO

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[Cloud9...68]

All the things DS mentions are appropriate subjects to discuss on this forum. But as I said, I don't see any upside in discussing politics here. Politics is something most people are very passionate and defensive about. I feel like I have a really good online relationship with everyone I've ever interacted with on this forum, and finding out somebody I respect and admire has the polar opposite political views that I have is a real downer. Again, no upside whatsoever.

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[flash]

we wil not be removing the political area. we will be adding more areas like it as we think of them. never thought about adding religion. we'll have to think about that.



there is absolutely no reason that this area cannot continue free of problems. if an individual is not intelligent enough to separate their views from their emotions, then they should step back. i think most people are though, and would not allow the discussions to degrade into a high school parking lot fight. this would be no different than anything else that is potentially fraught with complication. if you get emotional about a topic, don't participate in the discussion. turn that switch off or step back.



you merely have to understand your limitations, and not venture into an area where you cannot control yourself.



people who are steadfast in any political belief, and unwilling to consider other arguments, are merely not completely informed. i find that both sides of the fence have valid points. i do not align myself with any party. i have views that are on both sides. as a result i listen to both sides, and make my decisions based on what each has to say. i would never ignore or dismiss a view point that disagreed with mine. i may choose to disagree with it, but only after hearing it first and considering it.



open discussion is what this site is all about. it is a healthy and appropriate thing to discuss important topics. nobody can make good decisions with only part of the information. one of the most troubling things to me is that people make important decisions (like voting) based on tv commercials and hype, and don't actually read and discuss topics.



we have the ability to keep the peace here, but i don't think it will be necessary. i think we are all better than that. we have all already made the unpopular choice in choosing the 968. we did that in spite of all arguments against it. i think that shows a lot about who we are, and how capable we are of seeing the other side of an argument, whether we choose to agree with it or not.

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[Rap]

Cloud although I don't know you I hope we can still be friendly and charitable to each other when you realize my views may be polar opposites of yours! It doesn't make me bad , a downer, ignorant or misguided. Just different than you. Perhaps you should watch the original Star Track series to understand and be at peace with aliens. Lol no offense intended. Wit!

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[flash]

by the way, all of my high-handed diatribe applies to me too. i try not to get into things that i know set me off. i'm learning to walk away. when i fail to do that, i know it's my own fault, and my own shortcoming in intelligence.



as i get older, i'm finding myself having an easier time switching off the emotions on most things, but a harder time on others. i suspect that is true of pretty much everybody.

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[ds968]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1347146964' post='132395']

as i get older, i'm finding myself having an easier time switching off the emotions on most things, but a harder time on others. i suspect that is true of pretty much everybody.[/quote]



Either that or it's easy to switch off the emotions as you get older because at this age you start to forget what you were supposed to get mad about in the first place.. Just kidding. Actually I think as people get older they tend to be far less guarded and thus speak their minds with little or no concern of what the consequences are and whom they may offend.. But perhaps you're right in that they do so with less emotion and less resolve than the wide eyed, idealistic, youth ( YOUTZ ?! ) they once may have been..

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[Rap]

Or perhaps as you get older who cares. Say what you want and let the cards fall where they may. Can't please all the people all of the time. Just a thought not necessarily my own!

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[Langley968]

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

I "go away" for a day and come back to see that 35 posts have been added to this topic! And some very good ones at that! I am referring to some which I TOTALLY disagree with, yet still find intelligent and informed thoughts put into words.



When I was about to post this thread yesterday morning I hesitated several timed before hitting the "Post" button. There are moments that I agree with some here, that maybe a 968 forum should stick to "car/968" topics. Yet there are times where "other" topics have brought laughter, deep thought, and increased interest of what has been posted. If we are a "mature" bunch, we should be able to "get along", even if we have completely opposite views on some topics.



I wonder if "View New Posts" for "Lifestyle" topics may need to be in a sub-section of it's own, within the Forums? That way they would not be inter-mixed with all the "car/968" topics when we are looking for "View New Posts". This would make it possible for those who are NOT interested in the "Lifestyle" topics to completely ignore that section of the Forums. An idea to be considered...



Getting back to "politics"...

Here is are some facts that have shaped my world view:

* I am a Canadian;

* I have live in Brazil from ages 8-18 (1972 - 1982) and again from ages 25-35 (1989 - 1999);

* I have parents that were Dutch immigrants to Canada after WWII;

* I have always been fairly "pro-American" (probably influenced by my Dad's favourable opinion of what US troops did to free Europe in the 40's)



So... as a result, I have had a keen interest in politics in several countries / regions of the world.



Here are some personal comparisons / contrasts with what goes on in those countries vs. the US:

* In Canada we have three (3) main political parties and a system of "first past the post" in each riding. That means that a LOT of people do not get their views brought out in the federal political scene in Ottawa. The US has two (2) main political parties, and as a result, most of the population is not well represented in Washington.

Should there be more parties with different platforms in Canada and the US, so individuals can find one that aligns better with his/her views? I personally think YES!



* In Holland they have many political parties with a myriad of platform positions, but... they also have system where you can vote for a particular candidate/party independent of where you live in the country. This means that a candidate or party that is closely aligned with your views, may very well get a representative into the national assembly. The only problem this presents is that most governments are formed through a coalition of parties and as a result, they at times do not last very long.

I wish that in Canada we had the possibility of voting for a candidate, independent of where you live in the country, so that an individual with my "worldview / position" could then represent me in Ottawa. I think this would also be something that would be a huge improvement in US national politics.



* In Brazil they also have many political parties. There are some major ones within the bunch, so at times a government can be formed by one party, but more often than not, political alliances are made, so as to form a government. Within their system, for the composure of Congress, a party will receive a certain amount of seats depending on how many votes that party received nation wide. For the Senate they use the "first past the post" system in each federal jurisdiction. The system has some pros and cons, but in the past corruption has been the biggest enemy. That is (slowly) improving, as the population becomes better educated and more financially stable.

The system of allotting seats in congress based on a political party's numerical showing in the polls, is something that could be of interest in both Canada and the US...



There is no perfect political system, but having the feeling that you are truly being represented (at all levels of government) makes for a keener interest / involvement as a citizen.

What will this American election produce? Not much of what we have not already seen. Sad... the American people (at least the majority) deserve better...

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[Rap]

The men that came together and produced our form of govt our constitution and our bill of rights were a savvy group of individuals. Perhaps the world has never seen a gathering of such educated, rounded men. That said, its interesting the the constitution as a document used to lay out the parameters of a belief system designed to protect the rights and freedoms of its citizenry has worked remarkably well. Think of the change that has gone on since that document was crafted. The ongoing tug between states rights and the growth of the federal govt withstood the Civil War. Remarkable in and of itself.

Yet I'm not sure they envisioned an average of less than 50 percent of registered voter participation. We now have a situation where close to 50 percent don't pay taxes. We have how many people now on govt assistance? The number whatever it is is mindboggling. To a degree these folks are disengaged from the daily activities of the running of our govt or as useful productive members of society. I don't mind helping those in need. We are too wealthy of a country not to lend a helping hand to those that need help. But this used to be done by the people in communities helping their own. Now it's the federal govt who has broken this community bond and replaced it with the fix you find in your mailbox, your assistance check or food stamps or whatever it is that one receives.

People have been convinced by the media that your vote doesn't count either because no one represents your interests or because of the electoral college. The first piece is pure rubbish. Do we really think that a candidate will represent our every interest? This is merely an excuse not to participate. The electoral college has worked fine for years unless your candidate doesn't win. People want perfection in their govt when they don't have it in their daily lives. What's this disconnect about? It's an excuse.

I admit I am unimpressed with our candidate selection. Is it any wonder that some of our best and brightest shun political participation? The media in its ongoing quest to provide a storyline shreds and spits out on a daily basis. Who would want to have this happen to them? Only a steadily shrinking number of people who have the financial wherewithal and the desire to run for office.

Participation by the citizenry was a part of the foundation that our system of govt was built on. This includes voting and running for office. I vote all the time local state and national elections. I wouldn't run for political office if you paid me. My skeletons although currently whitewashed by what I do for a living would still cause me trouble and embarrassment if brought into the lite of day. Yet I like others am part of the problem for not participating in this second part.

Participation is the foundation upon which this society and our form of govt exists and works best. 50 percent or less participation is a pretty good example of what ails us today.

I spend an inordinate amount of time on and checking out the posts on this site. I do it because of the variety of topics on it. This includes 968 and other items. The vibrancy of this site goes beyond just reading about all things 968. I've met more people by. Participating in the events and online than much of what else comprises my daily life. Friendships have been formed with people whose political beliefs vary from mine. This is a great group because of these differences!

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[tamathumper]

Perhaps when I get older, I'll have both the patience and tolerance you all espouse. For now, at age 45, I'll be un-frequenting the political forum for two reasons. First, I don't want to get pissed at my friends about politics, which is the tolerance part, and second I don't want to read really, really, really, long posts about something unless it's telling me how to improve my car, and that's the patience part.



Sad case in point, I read the two previous posts, but it was hard - I found myself skipping and skimming several times and had to go back and force myself to re-read them...



Just like reading glasses and waking up at 5:30 in the morning, maybe a burning interest in political discourse is something that comes with age. I've hit the first two, now maybe I'll get to the third someday soon.



Have a good time here, but I'm going to try to not be involved. If there's a way to "ignore" this forum, I'm going to enable it and I assume as tolerant and patient as you all are, you won't judge me for choosing not to partake. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> I know myself too well.



Goodbye cruel forum! (Where's the smiley of the little guy jumping off the ledge?!) <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />



P.S. I figured out how to only include results from a sub-set of forums in the "View New Content" feature. If you look at the bottom of the left-hand menu, there's a "Filter by Forum" or something like that. It's a bit tedious as you have to select ALL the ones you want (there's no "Select All" feature), but hopefully it gets the job done.

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[Rap]

We will miss you!

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[Lear35A]

Tamathumper, nothing to do with age. I'm 64 and see these discussions as needless, boring, unconvincing and nothing to do with 968s or the 968 lifestyle (hah). IMHO Flash is making the wrong call on this one, but it's his bat and ball.

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