That is my engine and it runs extremely well. It has between 500-600 Nm for almost 4000 rpms so I would say the powerband doesn't really get better than this.
The engine build is pretty extensive and not cheap (but not necessarily more expensive than any 3.0l build), but the main thing is that it's not built the old fashioned way. Which leads me to one of my favorite quotes "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten".
This engine has custom 9.5:1 compression pistons and VarioCam controlled by the Link G4 EMS. Then there's a lof of other stuff such as larger head studs, pinned girdle, modified head, GT3582R turbo, custom intake manifold, large TB, 4" exhaust, large intercooler etc...
It makes 482 rwhp at 14.5 psi with a super flat torque curve which means much power under the curve with great driveability with no nasty torque spikes that break away your traction. IMHO this is the way to build a 3.0l engine.
I even drove it the other day in snow in -10C weather. Still perfect A/F's and idle.
With the higher compression ratio the engine is powerful even off boost. But just looking at the throttle will build boost lol.
Dyno and short acceleration sprint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sdm89GfbaE
In-car at the track with 0.6 bar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qseIdTKsRQ8
Yes duke. Your 16v torque curve is very impressive. Hats off. Youve done a some things differently than most people building them tho. It seems the higher compression ratio would certainly help down low. Your engine is proof you can get the band your looking for with a 16v. However it would then stand to reason, that a higher cr with the 8v and its characteristics of building pressure sooner would lead to an even more broad curve....no? For me, I could go either way when I do the 93', i have both cylinder heads sitting as spares currently. The 8v, just seems more straightforward, and logical for a street car. Which is mostly why I keep leaning toward 8v. Im not looking for the up top power really. Just seems like less hassle for my desired outcome. It would probably be cheaper to go 8v too. Money is always a factor, lets face it. But its really not a deciding factor for me on this one.
Interesting stuff. I'd be very happy with 350 rwhp. But it seems like even that from a turbo, even using a 2.7l 8 valve head would run close to five figures, no?
[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1298587511' post='105564']
Interesting stuff. I'd be very happy with 350 rwhp. But it seems like even that from a turbo, even using a 2.7l 8 valve head would run close to five figures, no?
[/quote]
This is probably the toughest question to answer when it comes to this subject. So many variables determine the price. It really depends on what parts you already have, and where you can find the ones you dont have. Of course, how much of your own labor you do too. Would you do your own labor, or would you be paying some one? If you did your own labor, it could be done well under 10k. 2kish for pistons/rods, whole 951 motors with plumbing, and harness, etc turn up all the time for 1-2k(sell off the bottom end by piece you wont need it), send the head to lindsey for welding the coolant duct for your 968 block 500 max, youll probably want him to rebuild it while its there you could go crazy expensive here but IIRC its around 1kish. Might as well rebuild your 968 bottom end so another 1k or so on rebuild kit(bearings, seals, HG, rings, etc). whats that all add up to? About 5500 bucks? Thats a rough estimate of course. For another 5k or so, you could send it off to Chris White to build the bottom end. Would be able to slap the top end on, and install it your self?? If so, youd be at about 10.5k then. Tack on another couple k for finishing the build, and install if not. Bring us to 12.5k. Dont forget the bill for tuning on the dyno either. Another few hundred bucks. Thats about it. I wouldnt even bother with trying to source a 2.7 head myself. Its has its advantages but hard to find, and people want too much for them. The 951 heads are a dime a dozen. These are just rough estimations off the top of my head. Should give you an idea though.
edit: Oh yeah, youll probably want a bigger turbo, software, etc. New it wont be cheap either. Lindsey, or vitesse kits can be had used tho. Turbo rebuilds arent terribly expensive. This is another area, that can get very expensive, depending on ones specific situation.
great work - probably a blast to drive
something i cannot see is what intake manifold is used - it's one thing that they played with the compression ratio, which is one reason i said nobody had done it that i had heard of, so this one does not qualify there either, and another that they are using the link and not the motronic, which disqualifies it as well, but i wonder if they used the 951 manifold or not, and if they modified it to fit the 968 head properly
impressive as heck though, and no taking away from the work, regardless of whether it fits the criterium i set down for a "turbocharged 968 engine" as opposed to an amalgamation of other stuff, which this one clearly is
and yes, the cost is very much an issue, which is why so few have even attempted the project
With all due respect I think you're being somewhat pedantic here Bob. If you are now wanting the literal translation of the thread title to be the governing factor then this will never happen.
You want someone to break the Motronic code, use the factory cast pistons, rods etc...it ain't going to happen. I think in the spiritual sense of the word Duke's car easily meets the criteria of someone successfully turbocharging a 968 motor. He's even retained the Variocam, headers, cams etc...
As to the matter of if these large capacity 8v or 16v motors costing over $10k to build, well that's just for starters. Ask me how I know!! The closest I've seen recently is my mechanic who is turbocharging some S2 motors using aftermarket rods, pistons, intake and a Vitesse turbo kit. Even with his own labour this will go close to $10k anyway.
no worries
i was bringing back the original issue from another thread which was a reference to a 968 turbocharged engine - key components of that would be the pistons (i.e. compression ratio), actual 968 head with variocam intact, yada yada (basically the things that make it a 968 and not an S2 or bored out 951) - as soon as you start changing major things like that, it is no longer truly a 968 engine
that is not taking away from the work or outcome - i commend both
10 K is not enough for my build ; I think I'm closer to 20 K and yes, mine is not a true 968 turbocharged engine, since I ( amongst other items ) changed the valvecap of my right rear wheel ...
Nevertheless, I'm happy with it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
By the way : entertaining to compare the sheets and see the difference between Duke's 3582 and my 3076 Turbocharger ; his 3582 is stronger, my 3076 is faster ....
Wow, $20K. A year at just about any public university, including room and board (I have two teenagers, so I tend to equate dollar expenditures to college costs). Anybody outside our hobby circle (and many inside of it!) must think we're all completely mad to spend the kind of money we do on these silly machines. But then, everybody has their passions which those on the "outside" shake their heads at - look at the money people spend on things like travel, hunting, golf, stereos, video gaming, skiing, scuba... the list goes on and on. And that's just the legal stuff! I can think of a lot worse uses of surplus cash than the incredible creations you guys have produced.
He or she could redo any year, cause I'm talking Euro's here ;o)
[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1324227143' post='119257']
Mistresses ?
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Yeah, I suppose $20K would be on the low end for a "hobby" like this...
Since this thread is pushing the envelope and we must stay on track, the Internet has made that much cheaper, more available and greater volume when we are talking about how many horses you want to run. Or so I'm tols!
[quote name='Dimma' timestamp='1324222571' post='119255']
10 K is not enough for my build ; I think I'm closer to 20 K and yes, mine is not a true 968 turbocharged engine, since I ( amongst other items ) changed the valvecap of my right rear wheel ...
Nevertheless, I'm happy with it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
By the way : entertaining to compare the sheets and see the difference between Duke's 3582 and my 3076 Turbocharger ; his 3582 is stronger, my 3076 is faster ....
[/quote]
The 3.0 in my 951 ended up getting close to 20k just for the engine, thats USD. I started from scratch with that one, other than the performance bolt ons. The 968 I have everything on the shelf, but pistons. I could do it for 10kish. Still havent decided what direction to go in exaclty. May just sleeve an extra 2.5 block that I have to 104mm, and build from that. Chris White already quoted me 10kish to build the top, and bottom. Or build the stock motor, 16v, ir 8v. More likely 8v. I might just swap the motor from my 951 into the 968, and the 968 motor in the 951, and build it eventually. The 3.0 in the 951 is a TS replica motor, with the exception of pauter con rods(wanted the extra strength there), and lindsey management, and bolt ons.
Id be curious to see the comparison also.
Don't forget that the right hand side engine support of the 944 Turbo won't fit the 968 because of the power steering ... We created our own ... which isn't as simple as it sounds since the support determines the angle of the torque tube and the gear box, which should be pretty precise ...
Though you may have many 968 parts on the shelf I do think you'll need a Turbo, wastegate and dumpvalve, motor management system with for instance EGT and Wideband sensor, custom inlet manifold, charge cooler or intercooler with waterpump and its piping, bigger throttle body and injectors, stronger clutch and flywheel, custom exhaust, runs on the dyno and so on ...
If you add that to the 10K you will get close to 20 .... apart from the labour ...
Yes - a lot of money to spend on a 968, but logic doesn't normally come into the it with these cars. It is certainly easy to spend a lot on improving these cars, I am a case in point (for my S2) as there is always something to upgrade. I'm spending a fair bit at the moment on supercharging which is nowhere near as complex as the turbocharging route that you are taking (though admittedly, turbocharging usually gives a better outcome).
You could look at it another way - a GT3 would cost $90K plus (996 series 1 - at least here in Australia). As long as you're only spending a fraction of this it is probably good value for a fast and competent Porsche.
"You could look at it another way - a GT3 would cost $90K plus (996 series 1 - at least here in Australia). As long as you're only spending a fraction of this it is probably good value for a fast and competent Porsche."
Thats pretty much been my thoughts with my builds. I can do it in stages too, and its paid for in the end. No financing.
[quote name='Dimma' timestamp='1324280886' post='119284']
Don't forget that the right hand side engine support of the 944 Turbo won't fit the 968 because of the power steering ... We created our own ... which isn't as simple as it sounds since the support determines the angle of the torque tube and the gear box, which should be pretty precise ...
Though you may have many 968 parts on the shelf I do think you'll need a Turbo, wastegate and dumpvalve, motor management system with for instance EGT and Wideband sensor, custom inlet manifold, charge cooler or intercooler with waterpump and its piping, bigger throttle body and injectors, stronger clutch and flywheel, custom exhaust, runs on the dyno and so on ...
If you add that to the 10K you will get close to 20 .... apart from the labour ...
[/quote]
I have about 95-99% of that already. Need a turbo, pistons, and some odds and ends. Nothing too big. Thats if I sleeve it. If I just have what I have here rebuilt, and assembled, most likely be considerably less than 10k. No need for manifold, my spare 951 manifold will bolt up fine to a modified 951 head(coolant passage ala Lindsey). I pretty much have an entire other 951 in parts that had all kinds of goodies on it already. Stripped it to the tub, and scrapped the tub. How much it will cost me depends which route I take. Sleeved 951 to 104mm sounds nice for many reasons. Piston choices for example. If my goal was to do it as cheap as possible, Im pretty sure I could get the engine done for under 10k, with labor. The suspension, braking and the rest of the car is another story.
In regards of the power steering, and engine support....you talking about a RHD, or LHD drive car? Not sure which support your speaking of. I havent ripped into the 968 yet. Im assuming its very similar to the 944's. Not much I havent done on a 951 at this point.
We have LHD cars here in Holland, just like you guys. The engine mount on the right hand side is the problem, since the 968 has power steering and the 944 does not. The 'clock' at the end of the steeringshaft ? ? is higher then the 944's i've seen. Take a look under the hood of the 968 and you'll see what I mean.
indeed going the 8v way will be cheaper and easier but not quiet as exclusive as the 16v way is ... ; I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the 951 inlet manifold wont fit the 16 v head ...
Funny detail is that the variocam works longer with the Turbo charged engine. We now have it programmed to work up until 6100 rpm with an 40 Nm increase from 5700-6100 rpm, where the N/A 968 shuts it down @ 5400 rpm and indeed works contraproductive if left open.
interesting - just how did you do that?
The car drives on a Vems free programmable management in which we can set the revcount on any value to power an output, in this case to the variocam solanoid ; engage @ 1500, shut down @ 6100.