we should be working on this again this week - hoping to nail down some of the remaining issues
this all started out for me as a potentially demonstrative method of working out some details for a different package - i have always wanted to do a centrifugal unit, but always said that i would not give up ANY features or street-ability in said package - i also always said development of that package was going to be entirely on my dime, and free of investment from anyone else, which is one of the reasons it has taken so long for me to get around to it - at one point i did pose the question as to true interest of others in such a package, but was very clear that no money would be expected until the package was completed and proven to work - i was only looking to see if i was going to do it with the intention of repeating it or not
unfortunately, with the thick head gasket on this car dropping the compression to about 9:1, most of the package won't show me much in what would work on an 11:1 centrifugal setup - so, i'm back to being nowhere on such a package, and frankly, at this point, given the complications of additional requirements in brakes, drivetrain, and suspension, i'm not sure it's all that good of an idea anyway - the RS Barn stuff already adds over 50 extra horsepower, and i've already had to upgrade the chassis, suspension and brakes just to handle that power - any more and i'm not entirely sure i want to get involved - the reason i bought the car was for wine trips - just how much do i need for that anyway?
<!--quoteo(post=67054:date=Feb 14 2009, 09:49 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Feb 14 2009, 09:49 PM)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->the reason i bought the car was for wine trips - just how much do i need for that anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is your definition of "need"?[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
played with the car some more today - jeff blew the overflow hose from the expansion tank - the fitting is on the wrong side, and put the hose in harm's way - got a new hose on there and took steps to get it out of the way - found the drain on the electrical system that kept leaving the battery dead - took a peek at the suspension to find the clunks and such - figured that out - new toys going in soon
the big news though was that we got to work out a MAJOR bug in the system - as i suspected, the idle control valve had a vacuum leak - fixed it - idles much smoother now, and no having to fiddle with the throttle on startup
the other big news was that we finally got to hook up the laptop and take a look at what was going on - she's a bit rich - gonna look into that more next time - want to get the AFPR in there first - then we can drive it and watch the maps and see what's happening, and start adjusting things
i'm now much more confident that we can get this going
well, we were set to start doing some tuning and install the AFPR on tuesday - then i get this call that the car is overheating and he is at the grocery store around the corner - buying water - seems the water pump chose that moment to take a dump - literally
he then rolls into my driveway a few minutes later and it was confirmed that water was pouring out of the belt cover - no tuning to be done - the irony here is that we just added coolant and water wetter just days before after a long series of straight water top offs due to a hose leak (now fixed)
so, we chose not to fret, and instead made lemonade and did this:
http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=7116
spent yesterday loading the car into the trailer and dragging it back to his place (no worries - gave me a chance to mount the new cabinets in the trailer and start working on that whole project anyway)
we will be back onto this after the weekend when he puts in the new water pump and now new belts
HEY! What is all that water?
Well, some is from the cooling system, but most is from my cryin' eyes. boo hoo. Yep, water pump decided to puke all over Flash's garage. Sorry Flash.
1 step forward, 2 steps back. Oh well. We did manage to make it a good day of it with Flash's rear speaker mod, and damn did it turn out nice.
For now, I am off to searching the forums for a DIY write up on water pump replacement. Parts should be here tomorrow and I'll tackle the job this weekend. To bad I just replaced the belts and rollers less than 10K miles ago, but I might as well replace the belts while I'm in there.
Flash,
Once everything is all sorted out what do you think a supercharger kit, like in Jeffs car, would cost? Don't need hard numbers, just a range would be good. $5000-7000? $10,000-$15,000? $20K+
Obviously bulk would bring the price down but lets just say you were able to put together a list of the parts that someone would need to purchase, fab work not included.
Jeffski,
While you're in there it might be a good idea to replace balance shaft seals. Those suckers are known to leak.
Regards,
Jay
there will be no kit - this is a one-off for sure - i am not even going to try to take it apart to duplicate any of the mountings or anything
i went into this with hopes of cross-applying some of the work to a different kind of system, but since we found out how different it is from the setup i wanted to work with, it is now moot
this is purely a personal challenge for me - i just want to get it running better, but i have no intention of going any farther with any of it
Well, I was hoping for more of a shopping list. No strings attached, just what parts would be needed to make a setup like Jeff's, just without all the trial and error that he's been through. Fab work is not a problem nor is figuring out how to make everything work or getting a proper tune. Which supercharger, injector size, recommended internal engine upgrades, pully size for 6-8lbs of boost, etc...etc...etc...
Please???
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
sorry - not a clue - can't really see underneath to see the mounting structure, and all the brackets for mounting, the manifold, and the plenum are all one-off stuff, so can't duplicate without removing
not sure the injectors are right yet - compression ratio not normal (9:1) - pulley size is for this compression ratio - very one of a kind installation - no chance of any sort of "kit"
besides, it's not even right yet, so still very far off from me signing off on it being "done"
while i like the torque and all that, it is not something i would recommend repeating - it has all the earmarks of being a high maintenance setup
Jay—Thanks, that’s a good idea. My car leaks like a sieve. I’m also replacing the power steering reservoir, which has been leaking for a while.
DiREWOLF—Well, unlike Flash, I still have high hopes that someday a supercharger kit can be realized from the work that’s been done on my car. I believe Flash was hoping to design a kit that would come in around the $5000 mark. To reproduce the supercharger setup on my car would cost quite a bit more, mainly due to the fabrication of an entirely new intake plenum. This is an expensive piece in and of itself. I don’t know how much exactly, as I bought the car with it already installed. But if I had to guess, I’d say it’s a +/-$3000 piece, as a one off. (Flash what do you think that piece would cost?) My car actually sports the prototype unit that TonyG and the now defunct Huntley Racing designed, with the intention of producing a supercharger kit, one that retained the cars a/c, unlike every other supercharger kit available for the 968. To my knowledge, I have the only air conditioned, supercharged 968 in existence. It was the prototype car and as such it’s a little bit of a hack, but I call it a work in progress , and I love it. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] Bottom line is this…it works. At only 5 psi, this car has a noticeable improvement in torque down low, it pulls in 6th gear on the freeway, and overall, feels like there’s a V8 under the hood. If you’re ever in SoCal, you’ll have to swing by and take ‘r for a spin.
As for my part, all I've ever wanted to do is complete what TonyG started with this car and hopefully get it to a point where it could be reproduced as a kit. When I bought it, it had detonation, cold starting and overheating issues. Now in all fairness, I was living in Phoenix at the time, but what better place to work out the kinks. If I got her to run good there…hey. But, unfortunately, I’ve gone the wrong way on some things, and spent money in areas that I didn’t need to. Such is the way these things go. No regrets. Lessons learned. Now, thanks to magnanimous generosity of Flash, lending his time (and garage), I think we will finally see this supercharger project through to its fruition. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
As for a parts list, it’s too hard to say as it’s still “a work in progress”. For instance, the car still has idling issues. We don’t know if maybe it’s the idle control valve not working correctly, the diverter valve not plumbed correctly or not big enough, a vacuum leak, injector duty cycle not set correctly, too large of injectors, etc, etc, etc. Until the kinks are worked out, all we can give you is a parts list for what’s on my car as is--which I'd be happy to do. Then you could duplicate my car, do some ‘fine tuning’ and tell me what you come up with. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img] Seriously, I’d be happy to talk with you if you want more info. Just shoot me an email. I’d love some supercharged company.
i'm not sying it can't be done, and certainly it's a very cool thing, but the real reasons that i don't see this becoming a kit are:
we would have to take it apart just to figure out the mounting
we would have to make an intake (production cost would likely be about $1500 ea)
we would have to return the car to 11:1 compression
it's probably never going to run on motronic, so stand alone ignition would be required
it will always need an intercooler
it will require an aftermarket exhaust
we would have to start all over on tuning, injectors, yada yada
this would be a very long and expensive process - i just don't see the reality of that happening for at least a couple of years - after all that, if a kit was ever developed, it would cost over $7k before even attempting to install it, or get it past any emissions issues - that's without factoring in development costs - i just don't see anybody ponying up for that
i'm also not sure the eaton is the right unit to begin with
it would probably be easier to start over
As far as engine management goes a low(er) cost solution would be a MegaSquirt setup. As far as an intake the runners from the factory could be used and the upper half wouldn't be too hard (or costly) to CNC (do 944 intake runners have the same shape as the 968's?). As for injector size, we would obviously need to go up a size or two, but the injectors used for a 2.7ltr turbo should be a start. The 951 intercooler seems to be up to the task and as we have seen it fits well with some minor modifications.
Does anyone have a way to get in touch with TonyG? Maybe we can convince him to give up some information and designs. Any information we can find on setups that don't work will make it much easier to get this done.
My big push for this stared yesterday after driving a new Maserati, the power and sound were great but it was horrible to drive, the 968 is a much better GT it just needs more power.
Jeff, I'll be in touch with you later today. The wife is making me go shopping with her. URRGGG...
not having played with the megasquirt, i can't speak to its abilities, but both timing and fuel mapping are needed, and the ability to do it with a wide band O2 sensor, and the ability to map both on and off boost at partial throttle
injectors - not sure what size is going to be right yet - must be high impedance though, which limits choices
intake - sure it can be done - all you need is a CNC and a good aluminum welder - however, it will end up being about $1500 by the time you are done in quantity - a one-off will run about $2500 - remember, there is the upper plenum, and the feed plenum - i looked into this already back when tony was selling the car
there is also a long list of other small parts that need to be made up or purchased - they all cost money - the blower is the cheap part
i really don't see this as being an economical kit - yes, i am pretty sure it can make about 290hp and about 275ft/lbs of torque - it will never make more than that though, so if you have the "boost bug" forget about this working - it just can't flow enough in that space
there are no short cuts on this either - we are working on a very tight budget, and i am donating the time - it won't get any cheaper - $7k is a very conservative number - if you're prepared to spend that, and do all the work yourself, and you can live with the very real power limits, then maybe this is the right thing for you
but, you can have about the same power normally aspirated, more easily, and at a lower cost - the only advantage to this setup is how low the torque comes on - it's fun to step on, and feels a lot like a small V8 - however, it also no longer feels like the same car - there is something almost lost in translation - that "rush" at 4500 is gone, and it no longer can sing to 7500 - if i had to describe it, it's a lot like an 87 5.0 mustang - i'm not sure yet if i think it's better or worse - it's just different
i know everybody wants to think this is easy, and the allure of the power is intoxicating, but there is a huge amount of work involved, and remember too that this one still isn't done - i am the fourth guy, many thousands of dollars later, to get in here and try to sort it out
this is a long way from ever becoming a kit
If there are several of us looking for reasonably priced kit, then this group might have an answer.
http://www.ststurbo.com/
There is a local installer that has done MANY 350Z's (one makes 650+ HP) and he tells me that it takes at least 3 liters to spin the turbo without terrible turbo lag. The rear of the 968 has plenty of room for the turbo package kit. If there is enough interest and STS wants to develop a kit via the guy who's local to me, my car is available as a test mule.
Who's interested?
Well, not that my intentions or opinions are relevant here, but I'll add my two cents:
Now that I drive a cab, I have abandoned the desire to go the forced induction way. When I had my coupe, I did consider turbo- or supercharging it at one point. The cab, for me, is a whole different ball game.
That said, if I were going to go the forced induction route, I would follow the path the factory did... and turbocharge it. I've never been a big fan of superchargers (even more so now that my neighbor has one on his car) and the fact that the factory already turbocharged a 968 helps to create a very viable starting point that can be improved upon with more modern technology. So I ask forgiveness from those who have or like superchargers, but IMHO turbocharging is the way to go on the 968.
I certainly applaud Jeff for his efforts and Bob for his as well- you guys are a different breed- in a good way!!! And I shall follow this thread with great interest as I want to see this all work in the end for Jeff!
no worries - there are advantages and disadvantages to all systems - the roots makes torque lower, but has upper end issues, is noisy, and weighs a lot - the turbo makes ultimately more power, but lacks torque down low, and is very complicated - that's why i wanted to do a centrifugal unit - it's a bit more of the compromise situation without all the complexity of both
but that's now looking like a faraway dream
Thanks biotechee--I'd like to see it all work out as well, but mostly for the benefit of our community. <i>My</i> hope of hopes is that our efforts <i>will</i> contribute to the realization of a kit, despite Flash's pessemism/realism. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]
Unfortunately, everything is on hold while I sort out my water pump issues. I had ordered the wrong waterpump, not realizing that '92 cars, like mine, utilitized a different pump then later models. What really bummed me out was that I wasn't able to bring my car to Flash's Tech Day for the guys to see and drive. Oh well. She'll be ready for the Paso Robles Run.
DiREWOLF--I haven't heard from you yet. Are you back from shopping with your wife??? It's almost been a week. lol.