38 replies to this topic

[968forums]

This is a new episode of an old and tired story, and we apologize in advance for even bothering the members with this. It is incredibly distasteful but necessary that certain things be made public. We don't want to whine and cry, and would have preferred to handle this privately, but the proverbial horse is out of the barn, and we now must deal with this publicly. Were it a single comment, we could ignore it. However it is taking on a life of its own, and must be dealt with.

As a result of some very serious abuse slung in the direction of two of the owners of this site, which occurred on another site where the owners of this site have no ability to respond, those members guilty of the abuse have been temporarily put "on a time out" on this site, with access extremely limited, pending the determination by the owners as to what to do on a more permanent basis. They have not been banned. They have not been suspended. No member has been banned since we took over the site. In fact, no member has even been suspended.

We find it abhorrent to have to do something like this. The owners of this site have always been open to criticism, and in fact have learned a lot from it, and have been able to improve the site as a result. Had the comments have been made here, or even made privately directly to us, we could have addressed them and moved on. Unfortunately that did not happen. None of the parties involved have chosen to avail themselves of the multiple methods of dealing with this in an adult and professional manner.

We find it incredibly cowardly and reprehensible to make accusations and defamatory remarks and hide in a venue where they know that no response can be given. Those people refuse to address us directly, and without any real information have made accusations that are totally unfounded, outrageous, and just plain false. They are absolutely incorrect and baseless. We are not inclined to essentially hand rocks to those people to throw at us, and consequently have restricted their access to this site while we figure this out.

Please be clear that this action was extremely limited, and only applies to those who made specific and libelous accusations. There are only 3 people in this group, one of whom many months ago deleted his entire list of posts before we could catch it, irreparably affecting the database. A fourth person requested his membership be deactivated. To be clear, we would never take action against someone for merely expressing an opinion or criticism, and it was only the incredibly egregious actions that prompted this move.

We expect criticism and opinion, and expect opinions to vary from our own frequently. In fact, we encourage such things, and have stated so many times. Nothing worthwhile ever originated in a vacuum. This site has been an ongoing development, as have the products of the owners, and all as a direct result of the thoughts and inputs of the members as expressed here on this site. We value that input highly, and would never take steps to curtail that. That cannot be said of other sites, where members are threatened with being banned for showing support of a vendor who is not a sponsor of that site, and who has been refused permission to become a sponsor.

While varying in degree amongst the owners, we do find it odd that other members here, who see the obvious abuse, do nothing about it. We do not fault them for this, and we certainly cannot force anyone to get involved, but the reality is that if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. We absolutely cannot and do not expect anyone to fight our fights for us, and frankly request that you do not. We realize the ramifications of such actions. We are well aware that any comments made in support of the owners of this site, or their products, would likely result in the person being banned from that site. We would not want that to happen, as the site as a whole clearly has value as a resource, even if the 968 section of it does not. However, we feel that we should at least be able to expect a boycott of those who would abuse us like that.

We have always taken the high road, and will continue to do so, and continue to let our actions and products speak for themselves, as they always have in the past. As proof of taking the high road, we continue to allow the vendor, who used our site to promote his product while refusing to become an advertiser, and who originated his own abusive and libelous remarks, to continue to have access to the site, so as to answer questions about his product, just as we said he could.

But, it is time to do something. Enough is enough. Allowing this abuse to continue, especially in the absence of any sense of reality or truth, is only serving to tear the community apart. A house divided cannot stand. Those people guilty of such a thing, and of making such remarks, should at a bare minimum be shunned. This kind of anti-social behavior is not acceptable.

We ask that our members remember that we are a family here. It is that interactive relationship that makes this site great, and allows it to stand clearly head and shoulders above any other. It is the ability of the members to openly express their ideas and thoughts that have resulted in countless new and innovative products for our cars, and have generated hundreds of new friendships. We help each other out. We gather for camaraderie. We rely on each other for support.

If you cannot find it within yourself to step in actively, we completely understand, and in fact would discourage any posting related to this on that site. It would only fuel a fire we would like to see die. Instead we ask merely that our family steer clear of sites that allow such things to go on. Patronizing them does not serve the community. We do not encourage the perpetuation of any further discussion over there. We do not encourage anyone getting into any fights over this. We would prefer to just let the handful of miscreants moan amongst themselves, and ignore them by not frequenting that area.

Thank you for your support, expressed or not.

[968forums]

There has been some time to sort through things, and after careful reading it seems that a couple of people may merely have been grossly misinformed. We are going to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they were merely listening to the wrong source, and one who continually leads an active campaign to defame and discredit us with twisted inaccurate and out of context drivel.

We will not hold them responsible at this time for the erroneous spoutings of an individual we all know to be nothing more than a disgruntled sour grape.

While we still feel their commentary was inappropriate, we also realize that these kinds of venues often lead to misunderstandings due to one-sided, incomplete, and/or erroneous information. People tend to respond in the heat of the moment without considering the ramifications. We encourage these members to contact us directly to gain a full understanding of what exactly is going on.

After further consideration, two of the members who were "on a time out" have been cautiously reinstated. We will see how it goes.

We apologize for any inconvenience these 2 people experienced and or will experience, and hope they take the time and effort to find out the truth. We only want what is best for the community, and sometimes have to take precautionary steps to protect the site, and sometimes people get caught in the fray.

We never intended to cause anyone harm, and in fact, in spite of and amidst all of this, took steps to assist one of these two people with some technical advice. That's how we are.

We hope this episode comes to a close soon, and the truth is made public. Once it is, everyone will find that we never did anything wrong, and will clearly see where all of the trouble originated.

[Cloud9...68]

I'm sorry to hear about this situation. I'm afraid I don't have anything meaningful to add, so I'll be brief. I never visit other 968 sites, as I find this one to be absolutely superlative, so I've never felt the need. As a result, I'm not familiar with the nature of the mudslinging described here. The few times I've looked at other sites several years ago (I can't think of one other than R.L., and the long-defunct clubstuttgart), I've found the information on the 968 to be very scant, and redundant relative to 968 forums. So, if it's OK with the site owners, I think I'll remain blissfully ignorant of the matter being desribed, and continue to support as best I can the efforts of Flash, Pete, and others to keep developing incredible, top-quality products for our beloved cars. Keep up the good fight, and keep the faith that you have the full support of this great community.

[flash]

we appreciate the comments, support, and thoughts - most people feel the same as you do - there are really only a handful of people that frequent that area anymore - it was important though to be up front, steer clear of any sense of impropriety, and make sure that anyone who might not know what is really going on be aware of the truth

frankly we brought this upon ourselves by trying to provide a venue to discuss something new

we sought out and encouraged a vendor to discuss the development of his project because we had hopes that it would serve the community well - we encouraged that development - when it became a real product, and a price tag and availability were posted, it became an ad - at that time we requested that they become an advertiser - they declined - that is their right, just as it is ours to not allow advertising without appropriate payment for it

we have strict policies which are very similar to nearly every other site when it comes to vendors, but we certainly don't threaten to ban anyone for mentioning or supporting a non advertising vendor - our line is when something becomes what is essentially an ad - at that time we expect the vendor to step up

nothing hidden - nothing improper

as for the project itself, and any claims regarding copying, you can see the thread on our project to find out the truth there

everything else is just plain nonsense and should be ignored, just like the people spreading it

[wiseman]

I have been reading the narrative on both sites and even as of this morning, members of the other site have encouraged their member to take the high road, to even take back his comments, .... acknowledging that the actions taken by this site were obviously in response to some very strong name calling and verbage used by him. Name calling and verbage that was clearly out of line regardless of the subject on whatever Forum site you would be on. Overwhelmingly, I believe the vast majority at both sites encourages the development of new products for the cars and discourages name calling and inuendo aimed at well intentioned suppliers. The market will sort out which products it wants to buy. At the end of the day.............we should have choices for Strut Bars.......we do, Shocks and Struts.........we do, Computer Chips...........we do, Wheels and tires.............we do. I don't see where the development of this new product is any different than the development of any of these other products where there existed one earlier. Its all nonsense. The better product will win and it will win as all products do by delivering the best performance for the price point asked. If the other developer feels that his product is superior and worth the extra $$, then he he has nothing to fear if a new competing product is introduced. Welcome to America...............its what we do, its why we are great!
Flash, your point is well taken, but, based on what I have read over there, for any of us to respond to that retoric validates the retoric and would indeed just fuel this on indefinitly. I for one would much rather spend the time continueing to encourage you and Pete and the development of this new product. You have nothing more to explain to me on this subject. You have my utmost respect and encouragement.

[flash]

thanks - that is our position too - at this time we ask that we all just ignore it all entirely and not participate in such petty and irrelevant things - life is too short

[968rz]

I have stayed neutral on this (even back on .net) because to me this seems more of a personal issue than anything else. I would like to say that to me it seems the owners of this site (current and past) have ALWAYS been on the high side; going so far as to ignore the issue all together while others have continued on with no let up.

Three cheers for the bigger man (or person if you prefer non-gender specifics)

[flash]

thanks - it's pretty easy to take the high road when you are in the right

everything will come out in the end - we're going to wait though, and present it all at once - we've documented the process every step of the way - there won't be any more room for anybody to make unfounded and erroneous comments without being laughed out of the room, and those who have already made such comments will be eating some serious crow

the countless comments, messages, and phone calls in support have been great - thanks to all

hopefully though the drama will come to a close - it's sad to see that one thread was closed, and one pathetic individual couldn't take the hint, and had to keep spouting erroneous nonsense in another thread - dense doesn't begin to describe that - maybe they aren't balancing their meds properly - lol

anyway............ again, thanks for all the support, and we hope that nobody else gets caught up in the nonsense - just ignore it all and let it die - please just stay away from there and don't fuel the fire - we're fine

[PorscheDude]

Or 6 single hands clapping for the other team while
we all have a tall glass of Kool Aid.

HEY, KOOL AID!!!!!

I really feel bad about this today. Between Pete and Flash, no one
supports this small tight knit community more.

Flash has takin the high road so many times, he's floating in the statosphere.

[RS Barn]

Awe common--I'm floating too

[Anchorman]

I was also blissfully unaware...because the excellence of Forums has made my visits to other sites things of the past - the distant past. However, history allows me to guess about at least some of what has happened...but I'm not going to look. Stay the course!!! and kudos.

[Lonestar968]

I've been off the net for a couple of days now and I apparently, like a couple of others here on the only true 968 website, missed all the mudslinging drama. Whatever. Fine with me since all that rot is so counter-productive and such a waste of time anyway. Hey, life's way too short for that kind of stuff!!!

And although I haven't necessarily agreed with every single word that has ever been posted here, I have never felt compelled to "throw stones". It's our personal option to agree or disagree. Isn't that great about our country!?

This site will always have my 100% support. Good people, good times and great cars!!!

Rock On!!!

[SILVY968]

Boy, I too seem to have missed all the fireworks.

I guess it is because I read only the posts that perk my interest and mark the rest as read to clean the slate for tomorrow.

This site is way too cool to deal with this kind of crap. I am all for free speech, but when it takes away from the mission statement of this group, I see nothing wrong with throwing out the trash.

Brian

[flash]

no worries guys - we're bigger than all of the nonsense and won't be dragged down by small minds - we will continue to provide the ultimate 968 resource this site has become, with the most accurate and up to date and correct information, and the best possible parts, accessories, modifications and service recommendations available

and it's free

[Walker18]

Had no clue about any problems on product development conflicts between individuals working on bettering our beloved 3.0Litres..
Instead of political style bad mouthing, why not take it to the track.. I for one, would enjoy an honest competition of equal steeds with
before and after race or Dyno inspections to support or debunk manuf. claims. Heck, let's bring in 'Mythbusters' or better yet, 'Pinks'.

Ok, without jesting, I fully support this forum even though I'm still new to it. I've dealt with a major contributor to this site prior to joining here,
and have been treated with the service respect of yesteryear. Honesty, pride and diligence is what I received, and is also the same courtesy that
I find here at this forum. Thank you to all!

[968 GUY]

Just ignore the stuff that is known to inflame and get on with the business at hand. The more it is brought back up and discussed,the more it seems to fuel the parties to drag it out. There are so many opinions by different people, even on this forum. Discussion and different views are welcomed, as long as it doesn't become a one-sided opinion of someone who thinks they have all the answers. This does not seem to be an "I am Always Right" type of place, and if it did, I would think that a lot of people would leave.
Ken

[DayDreamer]

"......and we certainly cannot force anyone to get involved, but the reality is that if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. "

Careful with that concept of picking sides.... sometimes, leaving things to burn out is better ( especially on forums ), we don't need to add fuel to fire over something nobody can win until the both products can be seen. This is a free market, once both products are out let people decide.

Its like two boxers mouthing off together with their fans and trainers... who cares... finish the fight and see who wins.

FWIW... the fiercer the battle, the greater the spoils.... We're wating for the spoils

[wiseman]

You know, Flash and I have never met and we are literally on the opposite sides of the country, but when I had problems and couldn't find the answer in the forums or didn't understand what I read, and gave him a call, if he didn't answer, he always called me back on his dime. Walked me thru whatever problem I had. That is the kind of enthusiast that I want to have on my forum of choice. That is the reason I contributed to the forum and became an Advocate. That is the reason I will continue to support this forum, Design 1 products and RS Barn.

[flash]

daydreamer - it isn't about picking sides - it isn't even about a product - it's only about the behavior - what was meant was that those who continue to comment over there, and allow the abuse to continue, only serve to perpetuate the problem - that is where the abuse is happening, that is where the problem lies - if such a thing were happening here, i would expect people to shun the offender (but frankly we would probably do that for you before you had to think about it)

just ignore it all - we are

[wiseman]

I posted the folowing on the RL site.


I visit here often but don't usualy post. I have been following this thread on both sites and would just like to make the following observation..............
The folks on the other thread have written some very detailed explanations of how this whole thing has developed and are available for all but a few here to view. Their rational with Carl was that once his posting left the information stage and jumped to the advertising stage, he was asked to contribute as a vendor. He declined. Others here were blocked due to the language aimed at the other forum vendor. Their rules are are not any different than here. It was out of line...........it was blocked.
I remain confused about the design stealing. As I understand it, Carls unit requires a different airbox and oil cooling line. The other requires no line, and retains the stock airbox. Carl sais their Supercharger will only effect low and mid range and will not produce the power his does. They say theirs will bolster up the areas that are lacking in the stock power curve. Carl sais theirs will require an Intercooler, they say it will not. Carl sais his will bolt up to a stock unit regardless of mileage with no reliability issues. They are recommending a new Head Gasket for 50K mileage cars and 92 models would not be good candidates due to the connecting rod issue on those cars. Sure seems to me that there is plenty different about these 2 systems and Carl is pretty sure theirs will not work. So wheres the design stealing if theirs won't work? The location of the Supercharger? Did all of this drama go on when different performance chips were made? How about different LSD's? Struts braces? Did the first company to produce these call the others that followed all the names being thrown around here? Just because one company produces a product, if there is no patent infringement, does that mean another company can't try to produce something a little better and market it as such? This has been going on in this country forever...............its called competition.
Once the products are complete and side by side tests are done, then we will all know what is what and which one does what better if at all. If Carl is right, then theirs won't work anyway...................which again flies in the face of the "stealing" accusations. Why don't we all give this a rest and move on until the products are available. Then we will see who was right and who has the better mousetrap..

The Moderator answered :
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseman
The folks on the other thread have written some very detailed explanations of how this whole thing has developed and are available for all but a few here to view.

Some of the 'other folks' have been banned from here, for various reasons as I mentioned above. If they didn't have a consistent track record, they would be more than welcome to come here and voice the views. But the fact remains they aren't allowed here. So this isn't a thread about Carl vs 'them', it is about Carl. That all being said, please have this thread head back in the right direction.
__________________
- Rob

My point was missed as I was saying all but a few of the RL folks could go on the 968Forums site and read your version of the events for themselves. Anyway, it appears the Moderator is stepping in and is trying to calm everything down.