53 replies to this topic

[flash]

lol - old age

 

i get the whole idea of the experience, but why be less comfortable or less capable?  why not be comfortable AND fast?  if you were talking about a race car, sure, but for a street car, that is not tracked, as is the case of 99% of the 968s out there, why not have your cake and eat it too?  even with my mgb i was adding creature comforts.  that car was ridiculously fast, and outhandled the 968 like nobody's business.  still, i wanted to be comfortable as i did it.

 

i totally agree about the value issue.  after watching this closely for the last 12 years, i can tell you categorically that the premium that M030 cars once demanded, relative to standard cars, has been cut in half, and with good reason.  you can now expect that any M030 car you find will require at least $2k worth of suspension/brake repair.  you can just about bet that the struts and shocks will need to be renewed, brakes are almost always completely worn out, as are bushings.  this is because the M030 car costs almost double in these areas to repair, and people put it off much longer as a result.

 

club sports may demand more, but they never brought those over here, so for the purpose of our discussion, that is moot.

[Bulti]

"i get the whole idea of the experience, but why be less comfortable or less capable?"

Making the car more comfortable or altering too much stuff will steer the experience more and more away from the original thing, which is the reason you bought it in the first place.

If one buys a classic race bicycle and you add all the newest stuff to it (brakes, gear levers on the steer, lighter wheels and what not) you will make the bike better, but ruïn the experience of owning a classic one at the same time.

Can't have everything.

[flash]

i disagree.  it does not have to steer away from anything.

 

i would have to conclude that choosing to have the "experience" of something that beats the crap out of you, and does not have to do that, is ludicrous.  who would do that, and why?  that would be like saying i want to run on dial-up rather than 300mb/s speed, because i like the "anticipation" of waiting for the files to download.  that's just plain stupid.  that is not a good experience.  driving a car that beats you up, when there are better alternatives, is not a good experience.  it's not like it's a 1950's ferrari or something, though even that would be nuts to drive.  i had one.  hated it.  it was a decent investment though.

 

as for the reason i bought it in the first place, i bought my first 968 with the full intention of stripping it to the chassis.  that is exactly what i did.  i thought it would be a good platform upon which to build a superior car.  that is exactly what i did.  it was and is superior in every way to what porsche did.  i had almost exactly the same ride quality and feel, yet far superior handling and cornering.  i had a lot more power, without losing the feel of the engine.  i had more comfortable and better holding seats, with heat.  i had a better sound system.  all of this, while not losing any of the character of the car.

 

i fail to comprehend why anyone would deliberately choose less than what they could have, unless it is merely because they can't afford to do anything else.  i have continually run into people over the years that try to defend that position for that reason.

 

remember too, many of these creature comfort options were available originally.  those cars were and are worth more too.  this is because they made the car better.  so, even the argument about "originality" and its relation to value does not stand up when choosing a lesser optioned car.

 

even when the cars were new, most reviews of the club sport, and specifically the M030 suspension, were not positive.  they continually called it harsh and rough.

 

guys who want to run autocross may see the advantage, due to how they score points related to modifications, but other than that, M030 is just plain crap. i would never put that in a car i wanted to actually drive.  resale bump is all but gone now, as is the customer base for that setup.  why suffer?

[MCL968]

This discussion reminds me of my old Volvo. I liked the car, but the suspension was mushy, it didn't have much power, very few creature comforts, etc. I changed much of the car to make it faster, handle better, sound better, and be more reliable. After a lot of work, worry, and expense, I found that it was still far short of what I wanted, so I sold it and later picked up the 968. Compared to the 1800, the 968 is posh! If I want comfortable cruising, I drive one of our other cars, if I want fun, I drive the 968, and usually alone.

 

I do take some issue about the collectability of the 968. I have learned to never say never. We restored two 55 T-Birds right before the world went crazy and the prices skyrocketed. The first one, which was a show car, was purchased for 800, lightly restored, and sold for 2500. A good profit back in those days, but two years later it sold at auction for 23000 with little more than a coat of paint and a few rubber pieces added.

 

My point is that the collectible car market is difficult to predict, and you really can't say with certainty what will happen to 968s or any other unusual car. Muscle cars selling for 7 figures makes no sense to me, since I worked on most of them and often they were terrible cars, with the Hemi Mopars being among the worst. For now, I will drive the 968 and enjoy the fact that it is at least holding its value, and that it's a fun car to own and drive.

 

Although, Flash's idea about a blown MGB is a dream I have had for some time. I want to drop a JCW Mini S motor into a B just to see how much fun it would be!

Edited by MCL968, 03 October 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[flash]

the collectible market is actually very easy to predict.  if a car had a following, it can become collectible.  if it did not stand out, or did not have a following, it won't.  rarity by itself does not make a car collectible.  the t-bird is a perfect example.  that car had a following.  it stands to reason that it would become collectible.

 

unfortunately, the 968 was never a car that anybody liked, received criticism from porschephiles, and never stood out as special to the majority of the car world.  the odds it becomes collectible are slim to none.

 

that does not mean that values won't go up.  they are and will.  they just won't do what some other cars have done.  any chance on collectibility will require extremely low miles on it, and it will have to be in pristine condition.  if you are willing to wait 20 years, you might have something.  why would anybody do that though?  even if it doubles in value, you would still be losing money.

 

it also does not mean that it isn't a fun car to drive.  it is.

[Bulti]

Bob, I get that you don't get it and that's fine by me. Opinions can and must differ.

But did you just compare the oem (kinda) driving experience of my car with dial-up internet? You should drink less wine. Or maybe more.

And if you stripped down the car to it's chassis, and threw 180.000 or whatever at it, your creation is MILES apart from the original. It just has to be. Old stuff is often less sophisticated than the latest, but not necessarily a nightmare to live with. Comfort will just spoil you to the point when only massaging seats are good enough, just because they are available and you think you need them. My suspension is fine. The M030 is just fine too if used in conditions in which it was meant to be used.

In any case, "ludicrous" is a very misplaced term for what so many motorists in this world believe in and love. They find it a real joy to "suffer" when driving around in their very unperfect cars. Ask the owners of old Italian cars, lol.

[Big Carl]

Flash you appear to be out of touch.

Just because you believe it, doesn't mean it applies to the world at large.

 

No following, yet its #7 out of the top 25 cars for september

 

https://www.hagerty....fordable-Luxury

 

Not only is the unloved and unknown 968 constantly making the lists for recommended investment, the lowly 924 is often recognized as being on a streak.

 

Porsche is the hottest brand in the collector market right now, and as you may know " a rising tide lifts all ships".

The 968 is to Porsche what the the Dino was to Ferrari.

 

[MCL968]

That's great news, but I don't know if I trust a list that places the Mercedes 190 at number 2! That was a dog that wouldn't hunt.

[ds968]

In any case, "ludicrous" is a very misplaced term for what so many motorists in this world believe in and love. They find it a real joy to "suffer" when driving around in their very unperfect cars. Ask the owners of old Italian cars, lol.

Absolutely !!! I could not agree more .

[flash]

lol - i was using ludicrous to be kind.

 

i could have used words like stupid.  i think it is absolutely asinine to drive a car less than what it is capable of, when you have the ability to make it capable.

 

the only reasons that i can see that would excuse somebody for driving something like a camry, is that they just don't know any better, can't afford any better, or just plain refuse to pay more.  i equate the M030 car to the camry.  i'm not far behind that with the standard 968, but at least that one doesn't beat you up.  yes, the M030 gets you from point a to point b, but it is a piece of crap to drive.  at least the 968 has the ability to be improved on enough to make it acceptable to drive.  however, after spending over $150k developing mine, i still found it lacking.  my standards are obviously higher than most to be sure, but the basis of the conclusion is sound.

 

yes, i equate the M030 968 to dial-up.  outdated, slow, painful, and completely unnecessary suffering.

 

this is no different than putting cheap tires on your car.  why would you ever do that?  it makes the car so much less capable.  that's just stupid.

 

the idea of all of this "visceral experience" is just hooey.  bouncing around and rattling, listening to a tinny stereo, having no decent phone interface, no decent cupholder, in a heavy and underpowered car is insane.  it is also very unnecessary.  there is some really good stuff out there to bring the car up to snuff.  why would anybody choose less???

 

 it would be like choosing to live in a 2 bedroom 1800sq ft cottage, when you can live in a 6000 square foot mansion.  why would anybody do that?

 

i think this is all nothing more than rationalizing one's limits. 

 

i would no sooner drive an old italian car either.  i have, and i've owned some (including ferraris).  they all sucked.  pretty to look at.  horrible to drive.  the only reason i would own one is to sell it for more money.

 

the 968 is a good platform upon which to build a car.  but, the OEM stuff is really substandard.  you can do so much better by swapping out some of that for better stuff.

 

as for collectability, i think i know where the haggerty numbers came from, and trust me when i tell you that they are not entirely real.  rule #1 of any car becoming collectable is nostalgia, and there just isn't any with the 968.  do some homework on this.  i've been at it for 40 years.  i had a great collection.  i knew what to buy and why.  i sold early, but those cars went on to be worth a bundle.

[94SilverCab]

Someone peed in Flash's cheerios...please proceed with a sane and reasonable discussion.

 

I don't think even he believes himself, just wanted to purchase an argument

 

http://www.bing.com/...368CD&FORM=VIRE

 

Jay

[Rap]

Jeez, I have close to a 1800 sq ft house that is very comfortable and as we get older a perfect size. If I want something larger I walk over the breezeway to the garage. Everyone decides what works for them. Sure doesn't need to be the same as others.

[flash]

lol - i get that different people see things differently.

 

my grandfather used to say "somebody has to be the garbage man".  pedestrian standards are the norm.  i get that.  settling just isn't in my nature though.

 

to me, there is no such thing as "good enough".  if it can be better, or done better, make it better, or do better.  the minute i make that kind of compromise, and settle for less, i hope i die.  i would rather do without, than settle for less than i want.

 

as an example, we are currently working on getting out of our 3500 sq ft house, because it is too small for the 2 of us.  we are looking at a 6100 sq ft house.  even that though is a bit less than what we want, but until we retire, it's probably as good as we will get, and have the ocean view we demand.  we gave up that view to come down here, and we regret it.  the only reason i would make even the currently contemplated compromise though is that we plan to retire on a different continent.  6100 is about as small as we can go, and have 2 guest rooms, 2 offices, a gym, a library, a wine celler, a dining room, a living room, a family room, and a master bedroom.  those are the essentials.  this house falls well short.  it has been painful to live here, even after the $500k we have spent remodeling it.  we needed the tax break though, and this was the best we could do at the time.  that does not mean that we will continue to settle for this though.  the neighborhood is a dump by our standards.

 

we just don't acknowledge limits.  we imagine it, then we go get it.  that is my philosophy on everything.  never settle for second.

 

the M030 setup is outdated.  it was just the best they could do at the time.  there is better stuff now.

 

the standard 968 is fine as a commuter car or grocery getter.  however, it is inadequate as a performance car.  it was marginal even in its day.  it hasn't gotten better with age, though arguably it has held up better than the competition of its time.  the good news is that there is stuff that can be done to update the car, and bring it up to modern standards.

 

progress is inevitable.  adapt or die.

[Bulti]

It is pretty amazing how much crap you can cram in such a limited space.
My thoughts are constantly going back and forth between "hopeless" and "futile". Not many people have achieved that before.

That being said, many people LIKE outdated s*** for the sake it BEING OUTDATED. And it is definitely not asinine (new word, jeej) to want to settle or enjoy something which is less than the very best. People DO like vinyl records without being insanely stupid despite the fact that digital files are so much "better".

It is called "the real world" and is something you should accept and understand as most people have to live in it.

I am really trying to get through to you, but the limits of my understanding of the English language are closing in fast.

Edited by Bulti, 04 October 2016 - 03:04 AM.

[94SilverCab]

Bulti, trust me, his argument isn't much better with a full command of the language...

 

Flash simply will never admit he is wrong, This has been both a blessing and a curse for the 968 community in general. It has led to bitter divisions and rivalries, but it has also led to superchargers that work and a multitude of upgrades that would never have happened without that stubborn determination.

 

You can present the best most logical argument, you will never "prove" you are right to Flash.

 

Jay 

[Bulti]

Thanks Jay, appreciate it.

The sad thing though, is that nobody is right or wrong, but that everyone needs a place under the sun and their opinions too. Without being declared a fool.

For the sake of peace and my sanity, I will now concentrate on more important things. Like what I will cook together with the broccoli.

[94SilverCab]

Broccoli goes well with:

Produce: bell pepper, cauliflower, chiles, leek, lemon, lime, mushroom, olives, onion, orange, potatoes, salads, scallion, shallot, spinach, sprout, squash, tomatoes, and watercress

Herbs & Spices: basil, chives, cilantro, coriander, curry, dill, ginger, parsley, sage, salt, tarragon, thyme, and turmeric

Other: almonds, butter, cashews, cheese (feta, cheddar, goat, parmesan, etc.), coconut milk, eggs, pesto, soy sauce, tahini, tamari, vinaigrette, vinegar, wine, and yogurt

 

Here is my source:

http://producemadesi...occoli-go-well/

 

Any thoughts Flash?

 

Jay

[flash]

i'm not wrong.  everybody else is in denial

 

vinyl records actually have a superior quality to them, in spite of the pops and clicks.  digital files (specifically CD quality) still do not capture all of the essence of the sound.  most people just don't know any better, or prefer the convenience over the quality.

 

this would be like choosing a flea bag motel, when you can have a nice hotel with room service.  if money were not an object, why would you do that?

 

deliberately choosing an old car because it drives like crap is WRONG thinking.  honestly, i don't think anybody would do that.  if they do, it is a personality and mental flaw that should be corrected.

 

this applies to racing too.  nobody would choose to race a 968, if they could race a formula 1 car.  they only do it because that's all they can afford, and they really want to race.  there is also some merit in racing the same car you drive on the street, especially if you can't afford track time to practice.  it gives you the chance to "practice" in your road car.  i did that for a long time.

 

people who defend this idea that an inferior car is preferable do so because either they can't afford a better car, or do not feel the need for a better car.  the fact remains that their car is inferior.  rationalize it all you want.  you can't change the facts.

 

by the way, the overwhelming majority agrees with me.  that is why new cars continue to move in the direction they do.  that is what the people want.  the only people who don't agree are those who need to rationalize their position.  given a choice though, of driving a new car, or an old one, performance being the same, and taking out of the equation all issues of finance, i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would choose the old car.

 

even restored cars of yesteryear, while "cool" to drive for a minute, quickly become a passing fancy.  you get one for reasons of nostalgia, but almost always sit gathering dust, because they suck to drive.  been there done that.  it is interesting though to see that misery loves company, hence the clubs that gather around these cars.  nothing wrong with that, but nobody is going to try to make the argument that they drive better than newer cars.

 

this site, and others like it, exist as proof of the inclination of people to move on to better and newer cars.  one look at the membership shows you that eventually everyone comes to the same conclusion.  eventually we all grow up, and put away boyish things.  eventually we all come to our senses.  even the hard core die hards have moved on.

 

further proof of the inadequacy of the 968, and the desire of those to improve it, is the well over $500,000 of sales of performance upgrade parts i have made.  that's just me, without even factoring in the other vendors out there selling performance upgrades.  the market realizes that the car needs improvement, and they go out of their way to hunt down those improvements.  i continually get emails from people looking for those parts.

 

some people are just slower at coming around.  that's fine.  i was that way for a long time.  it took a lot to get me to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

i have no issue with somebody loving the 968 for what it is.  it is a great platform upon which to build a car.  i had a blast with it for nearly 12 years.  but let's not get lost in dream land and think that they are in any way as capable of performance, or even practicality, as most cars today.  they are an inexpensive and simple way to have a little fun, but there is a whole lot more fun out there, if you are willing to spend the money to have it.

[Big Carl]

So the 993 Turbo is worthless on the market because the new 911 R is available right?

No one collects or prefers the air cooled cars over the current 911s because they just aren't as good.

Louder less refined motors, slower, less dealer support, no warranty.

Who needs the headache when newer, better, cars are available for cheaper.

 

Money is no object for the guys forking out $300K for classic 911s.

They actually aren't buying those older crappy cars and are buying shiny new ones, the auction results are fabricated by collector car insurance companies to drive up premiums?

 

Flash, you are delusional if you truly believe what you are saying.

I suspect you know better but are having fun playing devils advocate.

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that modern cars cant outperform older cars, so lets take that off the table.

 

The original issue being discussed is whether or not M030 is a positive or negative; and as far as Porsche is concerned, rarity and originality wins in the end. It's an added benefit that stock vs stock, M030 literally wins right now on the track over standard suspension.

 

So the question becomes, if you truly drive the car the way it was intended, why wouldn't you buy the better handling package without having to adulterate the car, retain the stock condition and maximize your resale when its time to part ways?

 

If you don't mind me asking, how much did your blue car sell for? Did the sale price reflect your "ultimate evolution".  

I suspect the market for an older car with a ton of mods is not that strong. Probably not much better then an excellent condition, low mile M030; only I don't have to spend tens of thousands over purchase price, and hundreds of hours of my personal time to get it.

The ROI is far greater for M030.

[Bulti]

Gnnnnnnn... (me biting my tongue after reading post #38).

Edited by Bulti, 04 October 2016 - 09:18 AM.