36 replies to this topic

[MB968]

that is an incorrect understanding.

there is approximately a 25# gas charge. this is constantly pushing. as proof, if you remove the shocks and compress them, they will extend on their own. the standard shock, which has no gas, will not. this pressure, and the valving and inherent resulting resistance associated with it, causes every bump to be met with resistance that results in jitteryness.

I'm not sure what you meant by this is an incorrect understanding. Your understanding of the gas pressurization is the same as mine. But at only 25#, times the area of the piston, you're only adding a very small additional resistance from the gas pressurization. That's why I asked. If the valving is significantly different, then that answers my question.

My question was based on the fact that my car is a hybrid. It is not an M030 car, but a previous owner had the M030 rear shocks/helper springs added. Having autox'd it just a bit, I can say that it still has a lot of push (at least one other very experienced autocrosser who has been in my car also noted how strong the understeer was). I recently purchased the adj. rear M030 bar to see if I can dial down the understeer, so it still is on that side of neutral, but can be coaxed to neutral or even oversteer with the right driver inputs. I'll find out later in March with the first autox of the season.

Additionally, I want a car as has been espoused above that I can enjoy driving. This is a lot more important to me than being competitive on the track. So I'm interested in real knowledge from other weekend racers if anyone knows how a hybrid like mine will act. Maybe I don't understand what jittery is, or how nice a pure non-M030 car rides, as I find my car very driveable on our fun back roads. It never seems harsh to me unless the road is really bad. Otherwise I like the ride, but maybe I don't know how good it can be.

[Eric_Oz_S2]

This is also incorrect, besides the sway bar bushings which naturally must accept larger diameter sway bars, point us to any p/n that's different between m030 and non m030 suspension bushings.

I can see why the thread was started as there's still lots of mis-info about m030. The only thing that's too stiff about the setup is the rear shock compression and I'm still trying to understand why its over-valved for the springs rates that it comes with.

Yep, they're the ones.

[flash]

mb - i would say that you need to take a ride in a standard car. the back end is much more settled.

as for still having push, that could easily be something else. in OEM setup, an M030 car oversteers. your front pressures may be too low, you may have too much negative camber up front, or any other number of conditions that lead to understeer. without knowing the rest of the setup of your car, i can't say.

[Rap]

I have never noticed understeer in either of my 968's and they are different cars with different set ups.

[Cloud9...68]

I have never noticed understeer in either of my 968's and they are different cars with different set ups.

Me, either, either in its current configuration with all the track-oriented mods, or before. It has always been neutral-to-oversteering-when-provoked, although I understand 944s have a reputation for having a lot of understeer. I don't think I've ever owned a car with a lot of understeer, so I'm not sure I'd even recognize it.

[flash]

it doesn't take much to get rid of the understeer. many people run too little pressure, thinking that dropping it helps grip. in reality it is the reverse, if you have a car that rolls and lifts the inside tire. when you drop pressure, it puts more load on the outside tire. this increases heat which reduces traction. additionally, many people put too much negative camber up front. this further exacerbates the problem by reducing the contact patch area of the inside tire, putting even more load on the outside tire.

the stock car understeers. the same car with M030 swaybars is more neutral. add a caster brace and strut tower brace, and then the car oversteers a touch on power. it's pretty amazing at how some things can really change how the car behaves. it's not so much the front suspension either. the rear suspension is extremely touchy though, due to its design. even changing 2 tenths of a degree of camber will really change what happens back there. same goes for spring rates.

[Bulti]

Isn't understeer engineered into most cars for safety reasons? Oversteer in incapable hands leads to more people crashing.

[flash]

absolutely correct. it's the same with brake bias. cars are engineered with heavy front brake bias so as to accommodate the less skilled "panic braker".

[Tom030]

The P 30 sport chasis aka M030 has been around on everything from the 924, 944,944S2, 968, 928, 911 and 986's since at least the mid 1980's. The idea was to produce a car that could be used as a weekend track toy or a basis for a dedicated race car for Trans Am., SCCA solo, Escort series et-al. An aquaintance allegedly spent over $10,000 in 1996 converting his 968 to M030 specs to make it legal for Solo 2. The factory OE package was about $1700.00 including the 17" wheels but not the ltd. slip or Torsen in my case. Is the ride harsh, uhh yeah, you might say that, at least at low speeds. Once you get over about 60 it settles down. The suspension was never designed specifically for autocross, although with a good, well thought out alignment you can be very competitive. You don't need drilled rotors, and 928 calipers or the weight that goes them for a sub 60 mph, 60 second run through the cones. On the other hand on a lightly traveled back road or a closed course the car can be a hell of a lot of fun. Is the M030 option for every one, no, but I'm going to enjoy mine for the forseeable future stiff rear shocks and all.
~tom

Edited by Tom030, 04 March 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Rap]

Bam ahh bam ahh

[flash]

i'm not sure what they were thinking, and can only surmise that the suspension (not to be confused with the brakes) was designed for autocross, as it is completely backwards of what makes the car fast in the corners on the track. for track setup, setting the rear spring rate at about 90% of the front is optimal. setting it stiffer than the front just makes it a mess. it works great for autocross though.

they may well have tried to service both uses, but they really missed the mark for track. now, the cup car spring setup may have been the ticket for track, but they never offered it for the 968.

frankly i think the car is too big and heavy for the track anyway, but that's a whole different oprah. this thread is about M030 and its real value in the market.

[bombfactory]

Just to add to the possible misinformation floating around out there regarding M030 spindles, it's my understanding that the only differences are the spindles (axles?) are simply a few millimeters longer to account for the thicker M030 rotor, and the caliper mounting tabs. And I haven't come across anything that says definitively they're stronger or beefier than the std. pieces.

I agree with Flash that the prevailing wisdom for a long time has been that anything M030 is the holy grail of 968 performance. I fell into this trap myself - 'upgrading', at significant cost, to factory M030 front struts and sways, only to be disappointed with the results once I finally got everything bolted in there.

[williamoss]

I have an M030 LSD vehicle 1995 coupe. AS this site may disappear I hope not, regarding the shocks and struts. I thought there were no alternatives to the yellow Koni. Mine are fine at this point but sometime in the future I will need to either have them rebuilt or replaced. What model numbers and brand names could I replace them with is my question?

[az968]

Koni sports are still available. I installed them on my car last year along with M030 bars.

If you haven't downloaded the Porsche parts manual, pdf, you should do so from the Porsche NA Web site under "ckassics". You can get the part numbers there and check with koni.

Edited by az968, 26 January 2017 - 06:51 PM.

[Blau]

Koni and Truechoice can rebuild the M030 shocks/struts. I had mine rebuilt by Truechoice last year. It was ~$875 for all four.

[williamoss]

I have an M030 LSD vehicle 1995 coupe. AS this site may disappear I hope not, regarding the shocks and struts. I thought there were no alternatives to the yellow Koni. Mine are fine at this point but sometime in the future I will need to either have them rebuilt or replaced. What model numbers and brand names could I replace them with is my question?

 

Yes TY for the different responses, but my question which has not been answered was what other shocks/struts would fit if Koni's can not be rebuilt in the future?

[az968]

I don't think you have to worry about Koni not being around in the future to either rebuild or sell replacements. They still sell them today. There are lots of other companies, like Bilstein, that make quality shocks, although I don't know the part numbers I suspect you could call Bilstein and inquire. Porsche would come up with a substitute, they have too much riding on Konis. But, I would suspect that the risk of no supplier for replacements is minuscule.