36 replies to this topic

[flash]

A lot of hype is out there about the M030 cars. There is a lot of misinformation too. Lately there have been quite a few M030 cars coming up for sale, and I thought it was time to point out a few things. In years gone by, these cars were highly valued, and demanded a premium over the standard models. 20 years later however, reality sets in, and in most cases, they are actually less desirable to most people.

First off, M030 does not mean the car came with LSD. That was a separate option. While many of the cars came with it, many did not.

What you get is slightly bigger brakes, bigger sway bars, 17" rims, larger spindles, Koni Yellow Sport struts with progressive springs (that are the same final rate as stock), and Koni Yellow Sport shocks with a coilover on them.

In its day, the M030 option was provided so that the guys who wanted to autocross could do so a bit better. It does a decent job of that. However, it does so at a cost.

What the M030 option is not good at is providing a civil ride quality on the street, and it is not particularly good on the track. It's too twitchy and rough. This is due largely to the rear shocks. The gas charged shocks, coupled with the added spring, make the car stiff, non-compliant, and tend to oversteer. This is fine in an autocross, but pretty much crap everywhere else. There are countless reviews out there about this, and they all had complaints about ride quality.

The other downside to M030 is the nearly double cost of brakes. If you drive the car hard, or autocross or track it, this can result in a serious increase in cost to drive. The braking improvement is there, but it isn't as much as one might think, and it may well not be enough to justify the cost to maintain.

Another thing to note, is that if they have not been done, at this point in time, almost all of the shocks and struts need to be rebuilt. This will cost quite a bit too. The Koni Yellow Sport struts are only rebound adjustable. The springs are just as soft as stock. For anybody considering tracking, this would need to change. This is not as easy as you think, as the spring perches are odd sizes, and there are no springs available for them. This means the entire assembly needs to change. Frankly, with the improvements that have been made in aftermarket parts, like shocks and struts, there is better stuff out there for the dollar, as long as you are not concerned with originality.

If you are looking for exclusivity, or as a collector's item, an M030 may be attractive and add to the value to you. If you are looking to drive the car, it may well be a serious detraction. Only you can determine whether or not those things are of value to you to justify any price increase. For me, I would look at the car as about $2000 less valuable than an identical car without M030. But, I don't autocross, and like a smooth ride, even though I like to take the car on the track too. I also want to manage the operational costs. Somebody else, who wants a garage queen, or a collectible, might think it was worth the same amount of increase in value. There is no right or wrong. There is no automatic answer.

Do your homework. Figure out what is important to you. Have the car carefully checked out.

[MCL968]

A lot of hype is out there about the M030 cars. There is a lot of misinformation too. Lately there have been quite a few M030 cars coming up for sale, and I thought it was time to point out a few things. In years gone by, these cars were highly valued, and demanded a premium over the standard models. 20 years later however, reality sets in, and in most cases, they are actually less desirable to most people.

First off, M030 does not mean the car came with LSD. That was a separate option. While many of the cars came with it, many did not.

What you get is slightly bigger brakes, bigger sway bars, 17" rims, larger spindles, Koni Yellow Sport struts with progressive springs (that are the same final rate as stock), and Koni Yellow Sport shocks with a coilover on them.

In its day, the M030 option was provided so that the guys who wanted to autocross could do so a bit better. It does a decent job of that. However, it does so at a cost.

What the M030 option is not good at is providing a civil ride quality on the street, and it is not particularly good on the track. It's too twitchy and rough. This is due largely to the rear shocks. The gas charged shocks, coupled with the added spring, make the car stiff, non-compliant, and tend to oversteer. This is fine in an autocross, but pretty much crap everywhere else. There are countless reviews out there about this, and they all had complaints about ride quality.

The other downside to M030 is the nearly double cost of brakes. If you drive the car hard, or autocross or track it, this can result in a serious increase in cost to drive. The braking improvement is there, but it isn't as much as one might think, and it may well not be enough to justify the cost to maintain.

Another thing to note, is that if they have not been done, at this point in time, almost all of the shocks and struts need to be rebuilt. This will cost quite a bit too. The Koni Yellow Sport struts are only rebound adjustable. The springs are just as soft as stock. For anybody considering tracking, this would need to change. This is not as easy as you think, as the spring perches are odd sizes, and there are no springs available for them. This means the entire assembly needs to change. Frankly, with the improvements that have been made in aftermarket parts, like shocks and struts, there is better stuff out there for the dollar, as long as you are not concerned with originality.

If you are looking for exclusivity, or as a collector's item, an M030 may be attractive and add to the value to you. If you are looking to drive the car, it may well be a serious detraction. Only you can determine whether or not those things are of value to you to justify any price increase. For me, I would look at the car as about $2000 less valuable than an identical car without M030. But, I don't autocross, and like a smooth ride, even though I like to take the car on the track too. I also want to manage the operational costs. Somebody else, who wants a garage queen, or a collectible, might think it was worth the same amount of increase in value. There is no right or wrong. There is no automatic answer.

Do your homework. Figure out what is important to you. Have the car carefully checked out.

Thanks Flash for clearing that up. As an owner of a non-M030 968, I always wondered what the differences were, and if I should have looked for an M030 model. Now I am glad I didn't. The three things I find most enjoyable about my Cab are the brakes, which I think are already quite good, the ride, and the lack of oversteer, even under diminished road conditions. If the M030 option would have negatively impacted two of those aspects, and not appreciably improved the remaining one, it would have been wasted money for this 968 owner.

Unless, of course, the M030 cars didn't always smell like gas. I would have paid the difference for that option.

[flash]

lol - yup - it's really very subjective. it's not nearly as black and white as some would like you to believe. as i said, when the cars were new, it was different. unfortunately most of the M030 cars out there have been beaten and/or neglected, largely due to the cost to repair. it's quite a bit more than a standard car, with not so much of a justification in most minds.

the "purists" will value them. the "drivers" likely won't.

that doesn't mean that an M030 car can't be a great car. i'm working on an M030 car now. one of the first things we did was toss the rear shocks and put something better in there. much better car now. of course, it's also supercharged now, and has a few other goodies too. it's turning out to be a great car.

[Duffer4126]

I fit this guy... Bought the m030 220 option car. I have to agree it is not a comfortable ride. Only had the car for a month so far, will be trying to improve the ride dynamics and comfort. I will be tracking it twice a month and rest wil be the back road twisties. But it is so much fun to drive! Being retired I really don't a have daily driver, i open the garage, then choose... 2003 mercedes sl55 amg, 1983 380sl for open air cruising.

[Rap]

Not to get to far off line, but I enjoy the LSD in my one car. It makes it a different car from the other. To me, this was a better option to chose at original purchase!

[bombfactory]

Flash what's the better rear shock option for an M030-ish level of performance? I have M030 sways and front struts on my non-M030 car and I still think the car is a bit too soft. Koni yellows currently in the rear too.

[flash]

that's really a different topic for a different thread. we'll keep this thread about the merits of M030 only. it feels soft because the M030 springs are the same final rate as standard.

[quick968]

lol - yup - it's really very subjective. it's not nearly as black and white as some would like you to believe. as i said, when the cars were new, it was different. unfortunately most of the M030 cars out there have been beaten and/or neglected, largely due to the cost to repair. it's quite a bit more than a standard car, with not so much of a justification in most minds. the "purists" will value them. the "drivers" likely won't. that doesn't mean that an M030 car can't be a great car. i'm working on an M030 car now. one of the first things we did was toss the rear shocks and put something better in there. much better car now. of course, it's also supercharged now, and has a few other goodies too. it's turning out to be a great car.

And just to add to the "con" side of the discussion, it's less expensive and easier to upgrade a standard non-M030 car to far better than M030 levels of suspension performance than it is to upgrade the M030 cars. The spindles of the M030 cars are unique and require different struts(read more $), where the standard cars' spindles work with any of the popular 944/951 setups. Brakes have been covered in other threads. Adding a LSD to a non 220 car is also very easy with several choices avail, which makes that option a wash imo. My car non-M030 has a Torsen added and it works wonderfully, and I never have to replace clutch plates as most of the Porsche units were not Torsen.

Cheers
Mikey

[Eric_Oz_S2]

Also, the rubber bushings are harder in m030.

I would also say that ride is subjective. Some may say that m030 is way too soft for the track and not really that stiff on the street.

Edited by Eric_Oz_S2, 28 February 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[flash]

soft and stiff are often misapplied terms. those refers to springs, not shocks. the front springs are indeed too soft for track. harshness of ride is another issue entirely. gas shocks make this car jittery and harsh. the added rear springs don't help either, as the shocks have to be valved to keep up with them. sure, some may not know better, or learn to live with it, but they don't have to. you can get better spring control without giving up ride quality. quick is right too. it can be done for a lot less with a standard car than an M030.

[Bulti]

Another thing to consider: for street use and unless the road surface is not perfect, a softer set-up of shocks and springs would mean that the wheels of the car can keep much better contact with the road suface and thus providing more grip, feel, safety, comfort AND speed.

For example, an M030's suspension would make the car bounce from one pothole to another on the worn asphalt of the Belgian Ardennes. Do yourself a favour: if the roads are shot, choose comfort and speed at the same time and forget about the 18 or 19 inch wheels and back breaking shocks and springs!

Correct me if I'm wrong :-)

Edited by Bulti, 01 March 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[Cloud9...68]

Well said ^.

[Bulti]

Thanks, for the reasons mentioned above, my black 18' rims are sold in favor of the 17' RUF Speedlines that will be refurbished soon.
I'm sure I won't regret it for a second. The car will have more like a 90's look too, which I like.

[MB968]

Here's a clarification question. I understood the gas in gas shocks was only pressurized gas over the oil. The pressurized gas keeping the oil from cavitating with severe use, and the oil is of course is always the damping media. So, if the gas shocks make the car jittery and harsh, what is different from the normal non-M030 shock? It can't just be from adding the gas pressurization?

[flash]

that is an incorrect understanding.

there is approximately a 25# gas charge. this is constantly pushing. as proof, if you remove the shocks and compress them, they will extend on their own. the standard shock, which has no gas, will not. this pressure, and the valving and inherent resulting resistance associated with it, causes every bump to be met with resistance that results in jitteryness.

[PorscheG96]

And just to add to the "con" side of the discussion, it's less expensive and easier to upgrade a standard non-M030 car to far better than M030 levels of suspension performance than it is to upgrade the M030 cars. The spindles of the M030 cars are unique and require different struts(read more $), where the standard cars' spindles work with any of the popular 944/951 setups.

Cheers
Mikey

This is not an accurate statement. The m030 spindles are compatible with the same full range of struts as non-m030 spindles. The only difference is how the brake caliper mounts, and some also say that the hub is stronger but I've never seen this confirmed by p/n or anything else official.

[PorscheG96]

Also, the rubber bushings are harder in m030.

I would also say that ride is subjective. Some may say that m030 is way too soft for the track and not really that stiff on the street.

This is also incorrect, besides the sway bar bushings which naturally must accept larger diameter sway bars, point us to any p/n that's different between m030 and non m030 suspension bushings.

I can see why the thread was started as there's still lots of mis-info about m030. The only thing that's too stiff about the setup is the rear shock compression and I'm still trying to understand why its over-valved for the springs rates that it comes with.

[flash]

G96 is correct on all counts.

as for the spindles, while i have not compared them side to side myself, i have been told that the M030 spindles are beefier. i'm not sure if that equates to a different hub bearing or not, but it does get a different hub than standard.

at the risk of sidetracking the thread from M030 into a discussion of shocks, many people set the front struts too stiff for the springs, mistakenly thinking that they are making the suspension "stiffer". what they don't realize is that shocks and struts only do one thing. they slow down the spring. cranking up the struts on a soft spring like the M030 spring only causes what is called "jacking". in reality it stops the strut from doing what it is supposed to do, and causes the car to bounce on every bump.

as for the rear shocks, i have no idea why they valved them like that. bilstein did the same thing. makes the car ride like crap. i think they presumed that the car would be driven differently, and that the compromise was acceptable. this is not an uncommon philosophy. bmw did it with the E46 M3 too. car rides like crap over little bumps and stuff, but handles well when pushed.

gas shocks became popular in the 80s because they are actually less expensive to build. a good hydraulic shock is expensive to get right. a gas shock can provide a lot of the same functions and features, but as a lower cost, due to the nature of compressing gas. it does a lot of the work. in an hydraulic shock, the valving has to do everything. but, you get the trade-off of less compliance with a gas shock.

again though, this points to the illogic of choosing an M030 car for street or track use. it does not change anything though for somebody looking for something more unique or collectible. the M030 may be that. only time will tell.

[94SilverCab]

Since there is precious little about the plus side of M030, I would just add that there were only 100 M030 optioned 968s imported into the US (all Coupes). This would be worth the premium to a collector of concourse grade automobiles.

JMHO,

Jay

[flash]

very true, which is why i said that it did not change anything for somebody looking for something more unique or collectible.