51 replies to this topic

[968forums]

Recently an increasing number of threads have been sidetracked or hijacked. I'm not sure why it has been so many threads in such a short span of time. The conversations have taken a left turn of sorts into an area that is completely off topic of the origin of the thread. This is a very real problem in technical areas like Heavy Breathing, where a thread was started about a technical issue with a product.

The same members seem to be the ones creating and exacerbating the problem too. They seem to feel that their witty repartee is helpful. It is not. It may be entertaining to those who know them, and I personally enjoy a number of them, but it is annoying to those who are just trying to find the answer to a question.

This website is primarily a technical resource. It is organized in encyclopedic fashion to facilitate the search for information. Consequently, it is important to keep the technical threads on topic. There are over 2000 members, many of who are new. You may not realize it, but the vast majority of members just come here to read what they need to about their car, and then leave. They do not get involved in the conversations. They do not enjoy having to sift through the banter to find the answer to their question. If they don't find it in the first 2 pages, then they end up emailing me (I got another one this morning). I do not want to get these emails. I don't want to answer their questions. That is what the site is for.

Over the last couple of weeks, I've had to clean out a few threads. They have turned into pages of off topic nonsense. As fun as it may be for some of us to read, that makes it too hard for others to find things. There are about 200 new members in the last year alone. It is not appropriate for a dozen people to ruin valuable threads with their inane drivel.

To reiterate, this is not a chat board. This is an information resource. Its social function comes secondary to its informational function. We are happy to add whatever features anybody can think of to facilitate the social function, but it will not be at the expense of the encyclopedia.

Please keep the threads on topic. If you want to start an off topic conversation, do it. Just start a new thread, in the appropriate area. We do not want to censor or edit anyone. We encourage the conversations, but keep them focused. That is exactly why we have so many categories. If you don't have something valuable and on topic though, please resist the urge to just type anything in an attempt to be part of the conversation. Nobody has a problem with the occasional joke here and there, or the occasional comment, but when it turns into an entirely different conversation, it has to be stopped and put back on track. It becomes a problem not at the first post, but when others jump in, and it takes on a whole new life.

Again, we apologize for having to do this, but cannot think of anything else that will preserve the integrity of the informational threads. You will find that this is not being done on the social categories. It is only being done where important information is present, like the modification areas and repair areas. This is where most members go to find their answers. Those answers need to be easy to find. I find the need to do this very distasteful, but I have to think about the posterity. This site will become as useless as the rest of the sites if we allow it to be sidetracked. We do not want to have to put these members on Moderator Approval, but if this continues to be a problem, we will.

[craigawoodman]

Dear Moderator,

Please then take a razor to my thread about my 928 Motorsports Supercharger installation as most if it is not technical and social banter - as you put it.

Please also remove all of my posts from the forum as if this is the direction it is going, I for one will not be part of it. I also assume that I am one if the dozen or so people who hijack conversations.

If this is simply for posting technical articles and for searching for information, perhaps Wilipedia would be a better location for the information.

Good luck trying to control social media. A forum is not a dictatorship and a moderator should moderate, not control or have editorial license.

[Lear35A]

I think the inevitable law of unintended consequences is rearing its ugly head here. We have these cars for fun. The social side is as an important as is keeping them running. Our social banterers are also some of our biggest technical contributors. How about a deep breath and a rethink from all parties?

[Inkedupfatboy]

I really enjoy the threads. Yes, I admit I am guilty of "witty banter", but that to me is some of the fun. I understand the need for some pure technical threads, but I also understand the community side of it and if it is all technical, then the community suffers. It also gets boring.

I understand that it is your site, but many of us have contributed in many, many ways. With knowledge, photos, the aforementioned witty banter and also financially. It all adds up. It all helps make it a successful community and resource.

I have looked at the other options, and chose this one intentionally for several reasons.

I have been involved in threads where it has gone off topic, and then seen many of our comments deleted. It was disappointing, but I also understood why. I encourage everyone to calm down and evaluate the situation. I understand no one enjoys getting emails full of complaints, but everything is here for the "greater good" - Remember, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Freedom of choice belongs to the customer and if the growth of this site is an indication, then most things must be going the right way.

No matter how many people you try to please, you will never please them all. Some people have thin skins and low tolerance. Sometimes they read more into something than what is actually there. You cannot control that.

I think everyone here does a great job and I really enjoy the site. I think the mods and the owners (are they one and the same?) do a great job overall. It is a balancing act and I think they do it pretty well.

I would hate to see long standing members, who's posts I really enjoy reading leave because of this.

Just my two cents, take for what it's worth.

[flash]

i don't want to see anybody leave either. this is a very recent flare up of this particular problem. i don't know exactly why.

what a few of the members fail to realize or acknowledge is that the vast majority do not enjoy their banter. most people (based on site view stats about 70%) just come here looking for an answer to a specific question, and post nothing. often it is hard to find. based on the emails i get, it's a very real problem. as an example, this morning i got an email about a starter bushing hole missing in a bell housing. the answer to that kind of question is impossible to search for when there is so much off topic stuff burying it. he doesn't want to participate in conversations. do we ignore those people? they might eventually become members and bring something to the table. do we shut them out because we allowed the site to become the same kind of mess the other sites have? there is a reason this site is the biggest. it's the information access.

in a perfect world, there would be a separation of information and social interaction. we tried that. we had a chat area. nobody used it. it would have been great if it had been. logistics prevented it though. i don't know what the answer is, but allowing threads to have page upon page of off topic drivel is not it. one thread i had to edit had 4 pages of off topic stuff. it was ridiculous. i suppose i could just start closing threads after maybe the first 2 pages, assuming that by that point all relevant information would already be there, but then we might miss something important or insightful. would that be better?

eventually i may find the time to pull from all of the threads, the important things, post them in a reference library, and delete or close the rest, so as to make the search for information simpler. i don't know if it would be better or worse though. we may lose of value a lot in that process. it took me 2 months of 8 hours a day to sift through things when we first took over the site. i still have over 1500 threads to put in the right places.

in the mean time, how about everybody censor themselves, use some common sense, not make so much off topic commentary, and not vomit all over the site? certainly don't respond to it again and again. it is incredibly rude for anybody to change the topic of conversation. you wouldn't do that in person, would you? i fail to understand why anybody thinks they can or should do it on a website.

we welcome any valuable and considered suggestions, but this is an encyclopedia first. we have always said that. the social aspect is important and valuable, and we all enjoy it, but some common manners are required, if this site is to be of any future value. this site was designed to service the new owner 5 years from now. before you type something, think about what you plan to say, and whether or not it will make sense to that new owner in 5 years.

to be clear, this is not social media. this is more of a library than a pub, and behavior should be guided accordingly. if you want social media, try facebook.

[ds968]

Surely there has to be some middle ground that can be found here : disallowing / removing any off-topic remarks from technical threads is an extreme measure ( to say the least..) whilst leaving the forum in response to that is the other extreme. I realize that a new member who looks at an "alternator does not charge" thread and sorts through the last two pages only to find out it now covers our political system's flaws, or global warming, etc, will wonder wtf is going on and where is the actual data or advice he/ she may be seeking is, but I don't think the occasional banter in a post or two here and there, regardless of the thread being a " technical " one causes much search inconvenience or has a material effect on the nature of the thread. Sure, if the thread suddenly changes direction completely that's another story and removing all those non-related posts probably well justified, but otherwise the moderating does come across as needlessly anal-retentive.

[flash]

i've been just as guilty of hijacking threads. that still doesn't make me any less of an ass for doing it. i was wrong. so is anybody else who does it.

the answer is for people to follow a couple of basic rules: if it's on topic, fine. if it's not, shut the hell up. if you can't, then start a new thread in the appropriate place (there is a place for just about everything)

the answer is not to throw a fit. the answer is not to force us to clean up threads. the answer is not to force us to censor anybody.

i don't want to shut down the site. however, if i have to spend too much time cleaning things up, so as to maintain the integrity of the encyclopedia that this site is, i will do it in a blink. i would rather it be a reference only site, than to have to monitor it like this. remember that in years to come, a new owner of your car will be looking for answers. do you want them coming to you with all of those questions?

for 5 years the members have done a pretty decent job of censoring themselves and keeping things pretty much on track. only recently has it become a problem. i am going to go through and find the members who have become the problem, and contact them. hopefully things can go back to the way they were.

[94SilverCab]

Flash, stop digging a hole...

[flash]

i'm not digging a hole. i'm dead serious about shutting this site down if things don't get back on track. i would rather go out on top, and let it become a resource only site, than to allow it to become "wronglist".

there is no reason people can't control themselves. i need to really start watching myself. i have been just as guilty of vomiting all over threads. that stops now.

[Inkedupfatboy]

Flash, Jay,

How about a way to color code the threads? If someone wants to have a pure technical discussion about a problem, they could for instance select the heading to appear red. If it was a free for all, they could select say blue.

A simple "hey let's stay on topic" warning could be more effective at times than a long chastising.

I think Jay is right. If you get too heavy handed people will leave. If you shut it down that helps no one.

[flash]

i've tried gently nudging people. lol - i've tried gently nudging you. the problem has only gotten worse.

again, i have been just as guilty, so i'm no innocent here either. i must force myself now to stay on topic, and shut up when i have nothing of value to contribute.

i don't know that color coding would do anything. most of the site is technical in nature. that is it's primary function. basically, if it has to do with repair, modification, maintenance, it's technical. that's half of the site. i suppose i could put those areas on Moderator Preview, and thereby have the chance to review each post prior to it going up, but that would take a lot more time and effort than i want to spend. besides, i don't want to be the one deciding what's relative and what's not. sometimes it's very grey.

but, thanks for the suggestion, and i welcome others. i really want to find a solution to this problem. i don't like having to deal with this at all, and just wish people could avoid the "diarrhea of the mouth" before typing.

maybe i should just limit how many posts per day anyone could make. that might make them think twice before typing something inconsequential.

i blame this all on facebook and twitter, and the concept that anything you think should be said.

[Rap]

As perhaps one of the biggest offenders, due to my lack of technical or automotive knowledge, the answer here is quite clear. If you agree to something then you have to follow the rules. If you do not want to follow the rules then the choice is simple, vote with your feet!

[94SilverCab]

I think DS hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a middle ground. There are 2 goals which we are constantly trying to balance, the fun/social aspect of being part of this group, and an encyclopedic source of 968 technical data that will survive for the next 100 years. We have tried a number of “Off Topic” solutions and met with mixed results, the”Lifestyle” section was created to move some of the social aspects into its own area.

I am as guilty as anyone of joking around, and posting “non-technical” content, and we have become such a close community that the threads often feel more like a conversation with a group of friends than a lecture hall at university. This is a blessing and a curse. I do not blame social media; I think this is a result of the true friendships that have grown organically from this site. Many of us have met, broke bread and looked into each other’s eyes, others, metaphorically by the frequency and tone of the posting. I don’t think we want this to become a wiki site, but PLEASE try to keep both objectives in sight when you post.

Let me suggest that we lower the volume on this current flare up, folks, please moderate yourselves, what you write today will be there for the future.

This is a FORUM, therefore all member are welcome to speak, if you have a solution, spit it out. It does not help our community to make threats, nor does it help to withdraw...we're in this together.

Jay

[lbpesq]

I, personally, am sad to see this forum head in this direction. It is very unfortunate. I understand both points of view, but perhaps each side could present their position a little less stridently? It does nothing but cause heels to dig in on both sides. As the lesser Mr. King famously said: "Can't we all just get along?"

[flash]

just for the record, this was a few threads. it was just a very recent flurry. it was not single posts either. it was entire blocks of off topic posts, on threads that never came back on topic. nobody was singled out. no decisions about content were made. i am not making decisions on individual comments. i would never do that, unless it was some outlandish and obvious issue (profanity, pornography, etc). i have not had to do that. people have done a great job of self moderating up until this problem.

also for the record, i bought this site to prevent the loss of the library-like function. that is its primary function. i brought in partners to help me balance my point of view against others. i know that i make some ill-conceived decisions at times, and that having sounding boards is a good idea. none of that reasoning has changed. however, i did not buy it to have a facebook site. i did not buy it to have anther wronglist. there is no book on the 968 that answers the questions every owner asks. building this to be that book was the answer. eric saw that when he created this site. his vision is that which i am trying to maintain.

in an attempt to grow and fulfill changes along the way, we created the Lifestyle section, so as to service the varied needs of the membership. that area has been somewhat successful. we tried a chat room. that failed miserably.

we have a lot of new members, and continue to gain more every day. cars change hands. more people find out about the site. people need to find answers. we also want new friends. this won't happen easily though if the site becomes a dog pile of off topic nonsense.

i think the answer is in self sensorship. some things are better left unsaid. i hope that people realize that, and think twice before typing. as jay said, what you type will be there forever. what you think is funny now, may not be in 5 years. we all want to have the kind of conversations you might have in your garage, but we don't necessarily want them on record.

if we all keep that in mind, i think we can continue to have the greatest 968 site on the planet.

[AJG]

Alright I admit it...I'm a bad boy. I will get under my car straight away and rip it to bits to become more testicle, I mean technical! No more nonsense. Yawn. Strictly business! Yawn. Bored now.

[Ryan]

I wouldn't be going out "on top". It would move it to the bottom.

[94SilverCab]

Seriously folks, we want to be the place to come...strong, constructive, suggestions that will make this site useful, and fun are more than welcome.

What has happened here recently is like a food fight in a cafeteria. We don't expect everyone to sit quietly at their chairs and just eat lunch, but the tone needs to be less chaotic and more focused. We are looking out for the new kids who's DME relay is wreaking havoc on their 968 enjoyment.

I promise to try to lend some maturity to my own posts...difficult as that may be.

Jay

Edited by 94SilverCab, 12 September 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[tamathumper]

I agree there have been off-topic diversions, of which I have started- and participated in- my share. The ones I don't start are really boring, by the way.

To be constructive, to your point Jay, and to be fair to the membership, I've re-read the Forum Rules, and they are very, very open - even encouraging "free speech" without fear of Moderation. If that's not the case it would be helpful (and consistent) to re-write the rules to reflect the intent of the site, and then perhaps rename the site to 968Library.com, as a "forum" is a place of open speech, and that might also be confusing. To wit:

===================
Posts & Moderation
Here on this Forum, debate is heartily encouraged, a free exchange of ideas is welcomed, and an open discussion of pretty much anything is always the bottom line policy. Members should feel free to express their ideas, opinions, and thoughts, without fear of repercussion, reprisal, or what a Moderator, Sponsor, or Administrator might think. However, the manner in which that occurs is sometimes an issue. As long as there is no pornography, objectionable material, and most importantly personal attacks, there is rarely a reason for a Moderator to step in, and the discussions are allowed to continue on their own uninterrupted.

At no time is it the intention or desire to censor anyone here. No Moderator or Administrator's views and opinions be given any more weight than those of anyone else.

There is a common misconception that free speech means you can say whatever you want. This is not exactly the case. Objectionable material, inflammatory remarks, personal attacks, name calling, and derogatory comments are not in the best interests of the community, will not be tolerated, and will be dealt with immediately. Sponsors, while afforded some degree of insulation, and certainly all due respect, will be expected to support their claims, and be forthright in their business dealings, will not have carte blanche, and are subject to the same rules as any other member.

We hope that there will never be a need to edit or censor anyone. As long as things stay civil, regardless of the position a member might take on a subject, or the content of a post, there should be no need to moderate, edit, or censor anyone.

There may be need for a Moderator to send you a request to reword something, which might be taken wrong. Due to a lack of vocal inflection, and tendency to respond quickly without considering what someone else might read into something, it is very common in this kind of venue for someone to condense what they might otherwise be more verbose in saying, to a point where intention and meaning might be confused. Please understand that it is not an attempt to tell someone what to say, but rather an attempt to have you reevaluate what is being read, and adjust accordingly.

[94SilverCab]

I think it is good and healthy for ownership to hear honest feedback from sponsors, advocates, supporters and members...I maintain that to be an effective forum that we need to maintain some order, but within those boudries we also need to remember that this is a hobby.

It's just cars people,

Jay