77 replies to this topic

[flash]

lol - actually, that one stemmed from the 914. it has been since applied to anything on the low end that is not a 911

[tamathumper]

The "Poor Man's Porsche" has been the entry-level model as long as I can remember. And sadly, the 968 *is* the 924, just 14 model years later...

Despite the comments on any forums about what we "educated few" would pay for a car now, the truth is none of us are shopping and our opinions don't count for much as a result. The only opinion that counts is the one from the guy with the cash in his pocket who just answered your ad.

I would clarify earlier comments - the price is not set by the buyer alone, it's set by the combination of the buyer and seller, both of whom define the "market". Using Kim's car as an example of a low selling price is a bit of a falsehood, as he would have gotten quite a bit more for his car had he held on for a few more days.

As with anything, it's in the presentation - and that starts long before the sale. I can't count how many times I've seen an ad for a Porsche that says something like "If you know anything about the 924/944/968, you know what I'm selling" and then includes a few amateur photos of a dirty car in a driveway... My expectation going in is already way lower than a more compelling advertising outlay would generate. I want to see pictures of the car in interesting places that I imagine I want to visit, in situations that I imagine I'd enjoy, etc.

The communication of what these cars are and their potential is complicated enough to require a dedicated website just to sell them. Take out a domain name for $15 for a year, call it "SellingMyBeautiful968.com", and put some pages on it... The next time you take your car somewhere interesting, take a picture of it with a stunning backdrop, because *that's* the picture you want in your eventual ad...

[flash]

re: poor man's porsche, since they really only made the one model at a time up until the 914, it's pretty easy to see the roots of the reference. that car originated the term, as it was not looked at as truly a porsche. this term continued on when they stuck a non-porsche engine in the 924. i have not hear it used other than here for the 968, but i am not surprised. i have heard "red-headed step child" quite a bit though.

yup - i said essentially the same thing regarding our opinions, and what we would do if we were shopping, knowing what we know now (often discovered or learned the hard way)

i also said the same things about ads for these cars. it's all about presentation. clean up the car, take good pics, list everything, both good and bad.

by the way, we have just such a website. you can do pretty much whatever you want in the way of content of an ad. then you can just link to here from other places if you don't feel like doing it all over again elsewhere. the cars for sale section is viewable to non-members, so there is no issue there.

[biosurfer1]

wow, guess I really have the Poor Man's Porsche syndrome since I have a 914 and just added a 968. I love driving around in my cars and couldn't possibly care less what anyone else thinks, I'm in it for me...just like most of you guys which is why I hang around here

[ds968]

and to prove that money is not ( necessarily ) synonimous with class, seemingly in most cases they are actually at opposite ends of one another, I give you this piece of evidence :

http://autos.yahoo.c...-151716166.html

Give me my " poor man's Porsche " any day, I would not drive this eye sore if someone would pay me .

[94SilverCab]

Guess you can't use the "hey man, wasn't me" excuse

Jay

[Rap]

Now DS surely you are showing your age. That car is soooo way cool. Did you ever paint your face a la glamor rock and trip the light fantastic? Don't you remember the day when you would have like totally dug that man? I will grant you that the wheels are wrong. Need to be orange. But hay come on, that's an eye stopper! Lol

[paulzebo]

As a recent purchaser of a 968, I would be hesitant to pay this much for a car that has the appearance of being flogged regularly. Replacing the rod bearings/head gasket tells me it was driven hard. A bad signal to any buyer. The second biggest item I looked at was the timing belt. To me, yours, due to age, is coming up on being time for replacement. If you want this much for the car, replace the belts, rollers and maybe the water pump. Then specify new belts, rollers, water pump with the mileage and date. Get rid of the race stuff and that you are a member of PCA. Can't say I like the red wheels or the number 12. Both would be another reason for me to look at a different car. As it sits, with 139k on the clock, I would say it's a $10k car, maybe 12k at best. I just paid $8200 for mine.
Recent Maintenance:
• Oil and filter -- Mobil 15w50 synthetic
• Fuel filter
• Front and rear brake pads (Hawk)
• Front Rotors and rear rotors replaced with genuine Porsche rotors
• Brake fluid flushed with Motul and bled frequently
• New Spark plugs (bosch triple-prong super plus)
• Transmission fluid changed with Swepco 201
• New Battery
• New Clutch Hose
• New Clutch (disk, pressure plate, bearings)
• New Clutch Slave and Master Cylinder
• Timing Belt replaced (Jan-2011)
• Rod Bearings replaced
• Pick-up tube replaced
• New oil pan gasket
• Head gasket replaced (Widefire)
• New windshield
• New chain and pads w/new valve cover gasket
• New Idle Control Valve
• New power steering pump (Zims reman)
• New Alternator
• Drivers side CV boot replaced (inner)
• New DME relay (993)

[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... Not sure I agree - I guess it depends on what you're looking for. To me, if I were in the market for a 968, the fact that it's been tracked, but maintained regularly as a result, would be a plus, not a deterrent. I do agree about the orange wheels, though.

[ds968]

@paullzebo - was that the one on eBay which sold for $ 8,200 a couple of weeks ago ? The coincidence would be too uncanny otherwise...

Edited by ds968, 29 June 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[paulzebo]

Auction ended May 26th for mine. There were about 12 to pick from last month. Only one is available on EBay today.

"Hmmm... Not sure I agree - I guess it depends on what you're looking for." Cloud9..68

Exactly. Most people are not looking for a car to race or one which has been raced. The market is slim for those who are. A search on 968 problems yields the belt maintenance, water pump and at that mileage, valve guides needing replacement. All I'm saying is to address the known issues which a buyer who does their research knows about, to get them looking and wanting your vehicle. List too many items and you start getting people thinking it's a lemon. You did all that stuff as "recent maintenance" ? Rod bearings are recent maintenance? Gosh, that's an expensive car just to maintain. On to the next candidate.

[tamathumper]

It's not too hard to address the real issues. What is harder or impossible is to address all of the bad advice prospective noobies hear when they don't do their research, but ask their local "Porsh" expert instead, because he "knows all about 911's".

[flash]

rod bearings are a very normal thing to do with these cars at anywhere over 100k. i am quite pleased that he did them, as most idiots would continue to run them until they ruined their crank.

i constantly see newbies making the same mistakes. this is not a 911, nor is it a 944. all too often they assume things and don't do the homework first. this leads to upset and disappointed new owners.

for me, a car that has been tracked represents one that is BETTER maintained than one that sits. to track a car means taking your life into your own hands, and generally people take that serious enough to take better car of the car. grocery getters would be the lowest on my list. i would never buy the car "that was only driven to church on sunday" without assuming that i had to replace nearly everything.

paulzebo - for $8200 you have bought a car that will need no less than $5k in the next year. you can count on it. at 151k miles, you are due for rod bearings and a complete top end. i would be willing to bet that your compression is down around 180-185 (that's the minimum). if you are on the original head gasket, prepare for a failure. variocam pads are almost certainly toast. they usually need replacing at 100k or so. suspension bushings, if original, are gone, rock hard, cracked, or all of the above. DMF is likely done unless changed. by now you're on your second and close to needing a third clutch. motor mounts are likely shot. start saving your pennies.

i have been carefully been watching this for over 9 years now. i have yet to be wrong about this. it takes a while, but it all sorts out. every single owner who buys a car on the cheap finds out the hard way that it still cost them a fair amount afterward, no matter how good they thought the car was when they bought it. the first year or 2 of repair cost must be added to the purchase cost. it's not "standard work" as much as neglected work. that's why listing everything is so important on a car like this. it shows clearly what to expect. we are all sick and tired of misrepresented cars and neglected cars being sold as "never gave me a problem" cars.

[rl968]

I can see some points that paulzebo makes and will adjust my ad, but I am more in the camp that flash describes, and am probably targeting a more educated buyer. I made the mistake of buying my 968 with blinders on, not really understanding all of the the issues that can come up. These cars are definitely not like 911s and require more work. If you buy a 968, you better take a hard look at the list of things I've done on my car, they will be in your future, especially the head gasket, pick up tube, chain and pads, rod bearings and all components of the clutch. If you can't do these yourself, you are looking at well over $10k in shop work. They are all done on my car, so prospective buyer should have some confidence that repair bills will be years away. At $13k, it's a pretty good deal...especially with upgraded shocks and struts, newer brakes and alternator.

Btw, not to change this into a timing belt thread, but I'd like to see hard data showing how many belts break within three years, seems very early.

[Rap]

This is a twenty year old car and parts need to be replaced. This once again proves the point of the need to have extensive service records when one is making purchase decisions. This helps allow you to ignore the owners assertions on how great the car is. With a little research on the Forum and asking advice, one can develop a list to check against the obtained service records. This allows you to determine whats needed and should be included in the overall financial future maintenance cost of the vehicle As a new track guy I would tend to agree with Flash on track cars being well maintained as mine is now in the shop every other week! If you drive your car to the track as I do you absolutely want everything ship shape so you can get home!

[Cloud9...68]

I also agree with Flash's comments on track cars being desirable due to the generally better maintenance they tend to receive, but with the caveat that most (though certainly not all) people who track their cars tend to prioritize mechanical maintenance over cosmetics, and to many buyers, the car's appearance is just as important as its mechanical soundness. A tired-looking track car will reinforce the stereotype of track cars being beaten to death, even though it may be in outstanding condition mechanically.

[flash]

i really don't look at external cosmetics (other than dents). a paint job is a simple thing, and frankly i have yet to see any of these cars that did not need paint work in my eye. i understand that most people don't think like that, but then most people have not been dealing with hobby cars for 30 years either. to me, it's a normal part of the equation.

all that being said, i would definitely remove the numbers and such, and post the pics with "normal" colored wheels on the car, with the other ones sitting next to the car, with everything all cleaned up and pretty

[Rap]

Since the only thing I know how to do is detailing, my track car looks nice. My knowledge base is greatly exceeded by say a Darryl! Lol

[bombfactory]

Flash you hit the nail on the head about buying a car from someone who states it never gave them any trouble. The two previous owners of my car said exactly that, and now I'm paying the price. I was the typical, less than adequately informed 968 buyer. Even though I kept my eye on the market for three years and did some reading on the car, I did not find this forum before-hand, and only now, three years after purchasing, do I know how much I didn't know.

My 'before' impression of the 968 was that it was pretty much the most reliable Porsche out there, that the costly maintenance issues of the 944 had been resolved and that these were relatively trouble-free, bulletproof cars. That might have been true a decade ago, and that residual opinion of the 968 is still out there - to the starry-eyed dreamers and the sadly under-informed (aka: me).

So yes, I bought low - below ten grand, a local car that had the options I wanted (6 speed, LSD, non-black interior) - and I did set aside a few grand up front for maintenance. But not nearly enough! As you can guess, I'm now above the initial cost of the car in fixing problems and of course upgrading as I go. It's a bit disenheartening at times, as I'm still not to the point where the car has been enjoyable to drive (heat and AC still to fix), but I love the damn thing, have a vision of where I want it to be and I'll stick with it!

[Rap]

Bomb you will be there soon enough and it will be well worth the wait!