28 replies to this topic

[Cloud9...68]

It dawned on me after posting this that it really wasn't ethical of me to do so, as the PPI was paid for by the prospective buyer, so I've removed the post. I can summarize by saying several major issues were found, including the firewall, the AC, the LSD operation, and several leaks. I'm afraid that's all I can ethically say at this time. Thanks for understanding.

Edited by Cloud9...68, 27 January 2011 - 06:59 PM.

[flash]

i don't think that posting anything factual would have any ethical complications - in fact, not disclosing such information would have far greater implications - it's your car, and you can post whatever you want about it

[Cloud9...68]

You may be right, but I'm just not comfortable disbursing information that someone else paid for without their permission. Certainly I would not hold back any information about the car from a future prospective buyer (I tend to go overboard in that regard, to be honest), but I don't think it's my place to distribute information in a paid PPI on a public forum like the internet. Maybe a reasonable compromise would be for me to go into a little more detail about the PPI to anyone who wishes to PM me about it. Thanks.

[flash]

do what you feel is right,but it's not like you are disclosing something about the buyer, or even the shop that did the PPI, but rather your own car - based on that, i see no issue with telling us what is wrong with your car, regardless of how you came to that information

[rhudeboye]

it's not like you are disclosing something about the buyer, or even the shop that did the PPI, but rather your own car

I Agree

Its your car, making these issues yours. I would be inclined to list the PPI in hopes of getting member support on the DIY items.

[Scott Collins]

Cloud,

+1 on that - no ethical breach to reveal info on your own vehicle, but you could always reimburse the cost of the PPI, then you own that report as well. I understand that this individual paid for the inspection and the information gained from that evaluation, so it's definately a "gray area", just a bit. Either way, your honesty is what is coming through here. That's what matters

-Scott

[banditsc]

+1 let it all out, it will be therapeutic.. Were here for you...

[94SilverCab]

If I recall, Fox944 was very descriptive about his car when he post his ad for sale. The good, the bad and the ugly.

In a way, just like real estate, it behooves you to disclose all known information to the buyer to avoid the potential of later legal obligations. If you disclose the information about the fire wall, a buyer can not rescinding the contract based on that issue.

What you tell and how you tell it is your option.

JMHO,

Jay

Edited by 94SilverCab, 28 January 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[flash]

another way to look at it is that the buyer paid to have access to information that you technically already have, as you have the car - you could have done this yourself - the information is not privileged, but access to it is

it would be improper for him to disclose the information, but not for you to do so - he purchased a limited license - you have an unlimited one

basically it's like somebody renting a movie to which you own the rights - you can view it or show it any time you want - others have to pay to see it - while they can do that, they cannot redistribute

[Cloud9...68]

I seem to have inadvertantly sparked what has turned out to be a pretty interesting moral discussion. I hear what you guys are all saying, and now that the prospective buyer has informed me that he is going to pass on the car as a result of all the unexpected work it needs, I'm less concerned about talking about the PPI results. My concern was over the fact that I don't really consider the information about the car that was uncoverd as a result of the PPI to be "mine," because I never would have known about the issues had the prospective buyer not shelled out the $200 for the PPI.

Be that all as it may, I've obviously been doing a lot of thinking about what I should do now. My inclination is that since many of the issues with the car involve major labor, but minimal skill (I fit those requirements to a tee ), I think I will take the insurance off the car, and start tearing into the stuff I think I can fix myself. I'll start by yanking the clutch and flywheel, and then replacing the rear main seal, which is leaking pretty badly, which I knew before the PPI. I'm very curious as to what it is about the wear pattern of the clutch may have contributed to the break in the firewall, and I'll take the flywheel to the shop that did the PPI to have it inspected/tested as well. If it's OK, I'll re-use it. If not, I'll probably end up getting a single-mass one from RS Barn, as I hear new DMF's are very scarce, and cost a small fortune, although I worry about the impact of the rattle on resale. Hopefully my DMF is OK...

Then I'll pull the oil pan and replace the gasket, and next replace the lower balance shaft rear seal. This will cover pretty much all the oil leaks. A ton of labor, obviously, but it will be nice to have all the leaks gone.

Except for the power steering. Also on the list is re-sealing the power steering pump and steering rack, and replacing the high pressure line.

In parallel, I'll take care of the fuel lines, which are apparently loose at their fittings. The feed line is out of stock worldwide, so I suppose I'll have to have some made. Any advice on who can do this would be appreciated. I'll post more info on my fuel lines once I get them off. I'll start a separate thread for this.

Then there's the power seat, which the shop says is probably the switch, which matches what I've read on the forum. So, I'll pull the seat and replace the switch(es). I know there's lots of good information on how to do this on the forum.

As far as the Guard LSD, the shop thinks the clutches are worn, resulting in weak lock-up. They think their wear may have been accelerated by possibly having the wrong type of fluid in the transaxle. The shop says the diff can be accessed without removing the transaxle, so I'll do some research into to it, and if it looks doable, I may even venture into the clutch replacement myself, which would save me over $600. I've never worked on a differential before, and don't even know exactly how an LSD works, so I have a lot of research to do before considering delving into this. The differential works fine, it's just not functioning very well as an LSD, apparently. I think I'll contact Guard to see what they think. This is definitely something else I'm going to eventually start a thread about. Does anybody else know of any instances where Guard LSDs have failed? They seem to have a solid reputation.

When I'm done with all this stuff, I'll take the car to the shop to fix the firewall. As far as the AC, I may leave it alone, and just explain to any future prospective buyers that it works fine, but it has a small leak. The shop recommends converting it back to R12, but I worry about the future availability of that stuff (I thought it was supposed to be long gone by now). This is something I'll just talk over with the prospective buyer. And the above plans may change depending on the interest of any future prospective buyers, as not everyone necessarily cares about every item.

The good news from the PPI is that there are an awful lot right with the car. The compression is 185 psi in three cylinders, and 190 in the fourth, all suspensions components are in great shape, as are the wheel bearings, CV joints, CV boots, syncros, shift mechanism, etc., etc. And it's cosmetically very nice inside and out. So, one the PPI discoveries are gone through, it will be one outstanding specimen of a 968. Sadly, I'm sure all this work and expense won't add a dime to its resale value, although it might allow it to sell a little quicker. My experience is probably pretty typical, as the value of things like cars declines as they get older, and the cost to repair them increases, leaving very little net revenue from a sale. I guess I was dreaming when I thought I could use the proceeds from the sale of the 968 to fund building a track car. I hear two kidneys are totally unnecessary...

Edited by Cloud9...68, 28 January 2011 - 11:09 AM.

[bombfactory]

Sounds like we have a lot of similar repair projects lined up for our cars! If it's any consolation, I'm not an experienced car mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, but just (well, over the past two weekends) removed, rebuilt and replaced my ps pump, along with a few ps fluid lines - including the cooler section, which required removing the inner fender well trim and dropping the oil cooler out of the way. Just take it slow and shoot reference photos with your phone as you go.

The ps pump re-seal was actually very straight forward - there's even a couple helpful walk-thru videos available on YouTube.

Next up for me: Front M030 Koni rebuild, M030 sways and then the big one - clutch.

-Austin

[bombfactory]

Forgot to mention - one of my seat controls was non-op when I bought my car. I tried the 'spray some WD-40 into the switch' fix and when I tried it the next day, bingo, it worked. Worth a shot before you spend any money on it.

-Austin

[Cloud9...68]

Austin,

Thanks for the timely and helpful tips! I was wondering how difficult the power steering pump reseal is. From you description, it doesn't sound that bad. You nailed it on the head - these cars all develop a similar set of problems in the same general timeframe, and we just have to accept that as part of the ownership of an old Porsche.

As I reflect on my PPI, I guess it's not quite as bad as it first appeared. The only real surprises were the cracked firewall, (for which I'm hoping to glean some more reasonably-priced options for repair from the members of this forum), the weak LSD, the loose fuel lines, and the nature of the AC issue. All the other stuff (the leaks, power seat, the sunroof issues, and the inoperative 3rd brake light) were things I already knew about. So, with some careful planning, and a bunch of elbow grease, hopefully I can get this stuff taken care of for a reasonable price, and end up with something resembling a brand new '92 968 for somebody to enjoy. And who knows, correcting every issue from a documented PPI might firm up the asking price a bit, too.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the squirt of WD40 on the seat switch. How long has this taken car of your problem? In any event, I'll run to the garage and give it a try.

Edited by Cloud9...68, 28 January 2011 - 04:47 PM.

[rl968]

I definitely feel for you. I just shelled a nice chunk of change to replace the clutch, fix oil cooler seal and do the timing belt. In addition I had the car painted. It's been about a month and there hasn't been a drop on the floor and the engine is completely dry. In addition, the other day I cracked open the valve cover to discover nearly new pads, chain and sprockets...yesss!. Some good, some bad. The only thing not working properly on my car is the oil level light that comes on periodically, thinking sender sensor (or tape over the light). I recently added stainless steel brake lines and over the summer I put on coil overs w/koni shocks all around. I also fixed a starting problem with a new DME relay.

While I'm not thrilled about having to pay for some of this stuff (I don't have the skill to do clutch or timing belt), I have to say that I am very happy with what I have now...and what I have appears to be a leak free 968 that is in outstanding shape!

I primarily use this car as a track car, and now I'm hesitant to take it back out...but of course I will!

[Monstrous4Banger]

The steering rack isnt too bad. Ive done a couple. I got a couple out on the shelf needing a rebuild. I could reseal one of em, and give you a real good deal if need be. LMK.

[Cloud9...68]

Monstrous - thanks for the offer. If the rack reseal isn't too difficult, I'm inclined to try it myself first, as I will have everything apart and exposed when I remove practically everything from the car to get the oil pan off. The inspection entry under Steering gear/rack condition said, "Okay - looks to have started seeping on the drivers side."

I am really humbled at all the offers to help coming from the forum. Hopefully I can return the favor by sharing my experiences with the repairs, although most of what I need to do is quite common and has already been pretty well documented, other than repairing the LSD.

[Cloud9...68]

"I primarily use this car as a track car, and now I'm hesitant to take it back out...but of course I will!"

RL,

I know this isn't really on topic, but I have to ask, how long have you been tracking the car? My experience with tracking mine is one of the reasons I've decided to sell it. My car is set up wonderfully from a suspension and braking standpoint, and it was a great car to learn on. But as my skill improved, I quickly found I simply couldn't drive it any faster, at a depressing slow plateau. A retired professional race driver I know took the car for a few laps (on a track he designed, so he was very familiar with it), and essentially didn't lap any faster than I could. He said the car simply doesn't have the torque coming out of the turns. And yes, my engine is quite healthy, judging by its compression numbers, and it has an aftermarket chip and the airbox mod.

So, it got kind of boring; executing the turns was always fun, but it got tiresome flooring the throttle coming out of the turns, and thinking, "Come on, Bessy, anytime now." If it was light and tossable like a Miata, it might be a different story, but this feeling of being able to out-drive my car when I'm still such a relative beginner told me that to continue with this hobby, I need something with a lot more potential, that I could "grow into" as my driving skill further improved. But on the other hand, lots of people very successfully race 968s, which has always left me a bit dumbfounded and in awe, given my experience. I suppose the other alternative would be to really convert the 968 to dedicated track car, but it's too nice of a car to "ruin" in this way, plus doing those sorts of mods on a 968 is quite expensive, compared to several others I could think of.

I don't want to sound like I'm dissing the 968, because it's such a great all-around GT, but as a track car, without some SERIOUS mods, I found it lacking, once I got past the newbie deer-in-the-headlights phase.

I really apologize for taking this so far off topic, but I really don't want to start a thread in the racing section about how much the 968 sucks as a track car, after all

Edited by Cloud9...68, 28 January 2011 - 06:14 PM.

[DaveN]

All I know is that I am so full on empathy for you that I feel depressed which unfortunately is making me drink the Glenmorangie with pleasure, now there's irony. I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Pete for my SC install but on the next round I will definitly get the firewall brace based on your experience.

Edited by DaveN, 28 January 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[flash]

there is a lot more you can do to the engine - your compression numbers are actually down to the point where a rebuild is indicated for a car that is to be tracked (fine for a while longer for street though) - you're a full 18hp from stock with that alone

then of course you could do other stuff, but it could indeed get expensive

a quick way to go faster though is to lose weight - you would be amazed at how much you can yank out of the car without losing any creature comforts - i pulled 240lbs out of mine - that was 7% of the weight of the car, or an effective 17hp increase - add that to the fresh engine increase, and you would be adding 35hp - while it's easier to pull weight from a cab, there is still al to you could lose - in all you could probably add as much effective power as all of the bolt-on mods you could do COMBINED

something to think about before you throw in the towel

[Cloud9...68]

"I will definitly get the firewall brace based on your experience."

I'm so glad my experience has helped steer you to make a very wise investment. I hope many others follow suit.