[Cloud9...68]

A huge factor in my choosing the 968 is the fact that it was the most affordable sports car I could think of with a back seat, which is a must with my two young kids. But over the past year, I've caught the DE bug, and as my skill improves, I'm moving closer to the point where better (read racing style) seats and a harness are worthy of consideration. But all the harness bars I've seen would eliminate the usefulness of the rear seat, which negates a big part of why I bought the car in the first place. So, are there any harness anchors/bars/attachments, or whatever they're called, that allow retention of the utility of the rear seat?



I saw an interesting set-up in a BMW 3-series which used conventional-looking 5-point harnesses, which attached to the rear seat belts. Probably not quite as secure as using a metal bar, but they appeared to be adequate for my purposes, which, as I said, is only DEs for the foreseeable future, as opposed to competitive racing. I believe they were made by Shroth (sp?), but when I went to their web site, I couldn't find them. Anybody have any experience with these, or any other solution that allows retention of the usefulness of the rear seat? What has me worried is that if I have to lose the rear seat, I might as well have a real two-seater, like a Boxster or Cayman, but I love the uniqueness of the 968, as well as the challenge of upgrading the car to keep it competitive with newer cars. Thanks.

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[Jim Child]

Harnesses attached to the rear seat belt mounting points without a harness guide bar are not safe. Don't go that route. Your best bet is to get a good bar and put it in for DE's and take it back out for street use. Installation and de-installation should only take you about 15 minutes. The best harness bar is actually a combination harness bar and roll bar that bolts into the rear seat belt mounting points. Its the Redline RollBar: http://www.homestead.com/redlinerennspor...dPage.html



Keep in mind that if you use 5 point harneses you really need to be using a racing seat with holes for the harnesses to pass through. Harnesses with the stock seat can slip off of your shoulders and are therefore considered less safe than the stock three point belts. Many DE organizations are now insisting that you use racing seats with harnesses.

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[Cloud9...68]

Jim,



Thanks, that does look like a very nice system. I would imagine that in conjunction with the strut brace I have, and the lower suspension brace I'm in the process of installing, this harness bar/roll bar would add a significant amount of stiffness to the chassis, in addition to the added safety. And yes, I can see how you would want to only use racing seats with a harness.



I have to confess, however, that even though I've picked up a great deal of speed lately, especially through the corners, I can't say I notice the sensation of being thrown around much in my seat. I think I'm still so focused on everything else (the line, corner workers, traffic ahead and behind, smoothness of my inputs, etc., etc.) that I'm having a hard time noticing things like my physical positioning in the car, or even, as embarrasing as this is to admit, which end of the car is sliding (maybe this is because the supremely balanced nature of the 968 means all slides are perfect four-wheel-drifts <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />).



I've heard many people say that a good seat/harness will increase your speed significantly, because you can focus even more on the task at hand, without having to worry about sliding around in your seat, but I'm finding that a little hard to comprehend at this point in my driving "career." Did you experience a big improvement when you went with a racing seat/harness? Or do you really have to get a lot faster before things like this start to make a difference? Thanks.



Andy

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[Jim Child]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' post='38571' date='Jul 21 2007, 03:13 PM']I've heard many people say that a good seat/harness will increase your speed significantly, because you can focus even more on the task at hand, without having to worry about sliding around in your seat, but I'm finding that a little hard to comprehend at this point in my driving "career." Did you experience a big improvement when you went with a racing seat/harness? Or do you really have to get a lot faster before things like this start to make a difference? Thanks.[/quote]



Do you find yourself using the steering wheel to brace yourself in position in addition to using it to steer the car? Do you use your left foot to brace yourself in position, and then lose this bracing when you go for the clutch or left foot braking? Harnesses and a proper racing seat will fix these problems. I did see a performance increase when I installed them, and if you're experiencing the problems I mentioned then I suspect you will too. Just make sure end up with a safe installation.

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[flash]

even the seats i have made a big difference - not truly a racing seat, but much nicer in grabbing and holding you, and have the spaces for the harness and sub belts - i lost no confort in street driving, but when i toss it into a corner, the difference was very noticeable to me



i had a couple of instructors comment similarly on it too, right after having driven other 968s



very worthwhile investment in my view - money is best spent improving the driver - things like seats and harnesses that assist the driver in maximizing their performance are always good

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='flash' post='38613' date='Jul 22 2007, 12:54 PM']very worthwhile investment in my view - money is best spent improving the driver - things like seats and harnesses that assist the driver in maximizing their performance are always good[/quote]



That exactly echoes the comments I've heard over and over from instructors, and others who seem to know what they're talking about.



As far as your questions, Jim, one of my major areas needing improvement is becoming more aware of what my car, and for that matter, my body, are telling me. As incredible as it may sound, I can't say that I notice any of the things you mentioned. And I don't feel particularly fatigued, hot (even in Texas in July), or beat up, even after (for me, anyway) a fairly spirited run. I see other people dripping with sweat, but I just don't find the DE experience very tiring. But then, I work out quite a bit, so I guess I'm in better than average shape. Now that I've crossed the hurdle of understanding the basics of the line, car placement, control inputs, etc., I'll start paying more attention to how I'm bracing myself in the car, and more than likely, will find more and more need for improved bolstering as I continue to progress. Thanks again for all the inputs.

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[JWahlsten]

Another consideration along the same lines is rollover protection. If you get good seats and 5-6 pt harnesses, please ensure you get some sort of rollover protection.



The harnesses will keep you in your seat very well. This means they will keep you seated upright in the event of a rollover. Needless to say this could easily have disasterous ramifications.



I really didn't like my Sparco Rev too much. They flexed too much and rolled my shoulders forward awkwardly. I guess my point is to sit in whatever seat you're going to use...I had Sparco Evos and a Momo Acropolis at one point and they were fine. My next seat will be built to work with a Hans or Isaac device.

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[Cloud9...68]

Yes, the set-up from Redline the Jim recommends is a hefty-looking roll cage integrated with a harness support. Looks very nice. But I have to decide whether to spend my next 968 mod dollars on the roll cage (and the attendant new seats, and of course the harnesses themselves), or on suspension mods to cut down on the sway. I'm amazed how much a car with M030 sway bars (1-1/4" front, 3/4" rear) sways. I even feel it on the street, where I generally drive in a pretty restrained manner.

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[JWahlsten]

IMHO you'd be better served by making the driver more comfortable, and the cockpit safer. I bet you'll get better lap times out of that than redoing the suspension. I know they lean a good bit, but they still hold the road very well...



I'm looking at getting the Redline bar as well. I just can't see going back out on the track without some type of rollbar. I have a Brey-Krause Harness truss, but I won't use it except for auto-x.

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[flash]

i agree about the leaning - drove me nuts to the point that i would not take it back out on the track until i did something about it - the 30mm M030 (1.18 or 1-3/16") front and 19mm rear (.75 or 3/4") bar seemed light to me too, even after changing springs and struts and such



that's why i installed a 1.25" bar for the front and a 7/8 bar for the rear - much better now



that being said, i also agree that money is better spent on seats, harnesses and the like, but for me, it was a go/no go thing - i would not go back out on the track with only the M030 bars - it just wasn't any fun leaning like that - i was used to a car with NO lean at all, and this was just too big, heavy and rolling for me to enjoy



now i think i'm ready to go back out



so, while yes i agree that safety items and things that help the driver should come first, i also understand about the things that are minimums for some of us to be able to enjoy the car

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[JWahlsten]

Makes sense to me, but his level of experience and yours are slightly different. Once his butt-o-meter is better calibrated he should be able to say what kind of mods he wants to do to the suspension.



I know I drove my first 951 quickly on just the factory M030 suspension for my first 10 events. It allowed me to learn the car and gave me a stable configuration on which to learn...



I need to get this car out to the track with the 968 M030 configuration to see what all the fuss is about. It sure autocrosses great even though it rolls a bit.

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[flash]

absolutely - i am a firm believer in learning first on a stock car - so are most driving schools - i'm not suggesting that he run out and make changes in the setup - i only meant that i understood the sensation of not feeling comfortable or in control of a car that is leaning and rolling a lot - i have no idea what he came from, but if it was a small car, it is easy to understand how this big one feels like it is all over the place



i'm rusty as an old gate, and i certainly have no business trying to guess what somebody needs based only a few posts here, but i do understand the uneasiness of how big and heavy this car can feel after so many years of driving a car that was little more than half the weight and a lot tighter

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for all the inputs, guys - very good discussion. Flash, I have no prior track experience of any kind, and have owned a mix of sports cars over my lifetime. It's not so much that the 968 feels especially heavy (it's a lightweight compared to most of what's coming out these days), it's just that I'm surprised how much it leans. My instructor commented on it as well. I can live with it, and understand and appreciate the sense of keeping the car stock until the butt-o-meter is better calibrated. I just can't wait to see how it would corner with less lean.



As far as the roll cage/seats/harness, it sounds very sensible, I'm just balking a bit at the total cost, given that I don't feel like I'm getting tossed around all that much. I know this is a stupid question, but why is there so much concern with rollover protection in a DE environment, especially for a relative beginner like me, and in a coupe? I'm aware of one guy who rolled his car in the past six years at the track I go to, so it's not exactly a common occurance (though I guess it only takes once to make a lasting impression!). It was a Mitsubishi Evo, and while I think the car was totaled, the driver and instructor were unhurt. There are several guys with roll cages, but they tend to be in the very advanced groups, and I think most of them race, in addition to doing DEs. I do like the aspect of the added stiffness I'm sure the Redline cage would impart, however. Just need a little more convincing I need this at this point in my driving experience (please, no high school drivers ed-style gory photos <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> )

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[JWahlsten]

Let's just say BTDT. I was going through turn 3 at Summit Point, and the boost hit hard and the tires weren't buying it...The car spun once, I put both feet in, tried to steer it, but ended sliding through the gravel trap until the car almost came to a stop. Of course, it didn't or we wouldn't be here now would we? It caught something on the passenger side rear flipped up on its side, and sat there for a second until it went on the roof.



Now, this has something to do with why I recommend some sort of rollover protection when you start going fast, but it isn't the only reason. I am an evaluator pilot with about 4100 hours in heavy jet aircraft. Safety is a BIG deal in the flying community, and most of us are type-A personalities. That being said I've done a good bit of research on belts, seats, and safety equipment.



Think of it this way, and I think I already went here, but I will again. Picture yourself rigidly pinned upright in your seat (a good harness will do this for you). Your rear tire blows at 130mph at TWS and the car makes a sharp right and heads for the wall. The wheel catches, digs in and rolls the car a couple of times HARD. The 968 roof structure is quite strong with its four layer construction, but it compresses 6 inches...



The rollover protection is for this worst case scenario. You may not be racing, but don't fool yourself you're going just as fast.



How's that for convincing? I don't want to sound harsh, but am just trying to make a point.

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, very good points. Seeing that this is not a pure track car (it's not a daily driver, either, but I use it for everything but commuting to work), the removability of the roll cage is a must, but how about the front seats? How difficult are they to remove and put back in? If I go with true racing seats for track days, I'll have to take them in and out. Can't imagine this is too much fun, but how bad is it? Would dual-purpose seats, with openings for the harness, reclinability, but better lateral support than the stock sport seats, likely be a better option? Thanks.

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[JWahlsten]

I used to drive my car all the time with the fixed race seats in it. If you get tunnel mounts for the seat belts it's no big deal. I actually found them plenty comfortable.



The dual purpose seats are a great compromise in my opinion. Flash's seat are beautiful (saw them at Hershey), but you can get them much simpler and cheaper. I've had Konigs and thought they were very comfortable for daily use. I had them recovered, and had leather pads sewn into the bolsters to prevent the excessive wear on the outsides of the seats.



The only caution I have is I did see a 911 go backwards into the armco at the Glen in turn 10, and his Recaro SRD seatback broke. He was uninjured, but the fixed back is going to be slightly safer.



The seats are removed with two to three electrical connections and 6 bolts, so removal is an option.



To properly install belts you really should drill into the tunnel. I know Brey-Krause makes a kit for seat mounted harnesses though. The reason for drilling and installing a new mount is the geometry of the belt install to prevent dumping. Belt dumping is really what led to the basal skull fracture that killed Dale Earnhart Sr. You'll want separate mounting locations for you sub belts as well. These and the tunnel mount should be backed by 4" plates.

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, on to the next logical questions. Seems to me that one reasonable compromise might be to install a serious, highly supportive, but somewhat padded, high quality fixed-back seat in the drivers side, and keep it there pretty much year-round, but put the stock passenger seat back in between track events (along with removing the roll cage), to allow easy access to the back seat. I'd only install a matching racing seat in the passenger side for track days, primarily to help offset the weight of the roll cage. Taking the non-power passenger seat in and out should be relatively painless, given the absence of a steering wheel on that side.



This raises a couple of questions, though. The most obvious one being, what type of seat do you guys recommend, and what is the best way to buy one at a reasonable cost? My interior is gray, so if I could find one that matches the interior, that would be a plus, but not essential. I'm about 5'10", 170 lb, with what I would describe as an aging swimmer's or gymnast's build. I have a 32" waist, and my body fat is about 10%. I sat in a few racing seats at a shop at the track at my last DE, and actually found them to be very comfortable. I think the one I liked best was the Sparco Pro2000, if I remember right.



I also just finished reading "Track Day Driver's Guide" by Art Markus (great book - I highly recommend it), and in the chapter on safety equipment, he makes an interesting recommendation to NOT use a harness for street driving, because it inhibits your ability to lean forward and crane your neck to check for approaching traffic, making it actually less safe than a standard inertia reel seat belt. Which leads me to my next question - is there any problem with using the stock seatbelt with a racing-style seat for street driving?



Thanks. I did a search on racing seats, and surprisingly, nothing came up, so maybe I'll post this under its own, new topic.

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[mikeo]

Everyone reading this thread must read this Rennlist thread. Don't buy anything else to you fully understand the new PCA requirements for seats and harnesses at PCA sponsored DEs beginning in 2008.



It is a long thread (it started in February) so it wanders a bit.

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention; I guess my post was pretty timely. It's interesting that the new rules don't dictate that a harness/racing seat must be used in DEs, only the requirements IF you choose to go that route. The next logical step would seem to be requiring the use of a harness/racing seat in specific run groups on up. In reading the new rule, and the ensuing discussion, it reinforces that John Hajny's removable roll bar/harness brace that Jim Child posted a link to makes the most sense in a dual-purpose car like mine.



Back to my qustion about seats, Sparco makes one called the Fighter, which looks very similar to the Pro2000 I found so comfortable, except the Fighter seems narrower in the shoulder area, which should allow easier fitment into our cars, plus the Fighter is about $200 cheaper. Any experience out there with these seats? And what about mounting in the car? What types of brackets are needed? Thanks.

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[JWahlsten]

Mike, thanks for the link to that thread. There is more good discussion there on the HANS/Isaac devices as well.



As far as the seats go, I haven't sat in the fighter, but have had both the Rev and Evo. The Evo was better, but I really didn't like the way the upper portion of the seat rolled my shoulders forward. I am an aging swimmer/cyclist as well so can relate to your body type. I will need to sit in whatever seat I am going to buy before purchasing to ensure comfort and hole placement for a head and neck restraint.



Don't think of just now. Think where you want to be in five years...Good advice advice from a friend who clubraced and owns a pretty darn good race prep shop in VA.

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