[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='TheMirror' date='Jul 30 2006, 07:02 PM']...The 300ZX Turbo still has a solid following as well, but many of those cars have disappeared from the roads.[/quote]



8-10 years ago I used to see quite a few 300ZX TTs around here (SF Bay Area). Then I noticed recently that they were very thin on the ground and was wondering if it was my imagination. Looks like it wasn't...



Karl.

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[TheMirror]

Exactly. Check out this nationwide autotrader search for 5spd. cars. A good bunch of wishful thinkers with high money cars at the top, followed by a modest number of low and high mileage unmodified Turbos for CHEAP. Limit that search to 100 miles of San Francisco and you get one or two.



Lots of high mileage, cheap N/A cars though....



http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresult...en&fuel=&doors=



Curious if anyone would be interested in the cars listed above for the same price they paid for their 968 PLUS the first two years of 968 receipts.....I'm guessing no.



-Mirror

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[Bob Kovacs]

Interestingly, I picked up the Feb 2006 copy of Panorama last night and found a short bit on how Porsche prices its cars. The item was on the introduction of the 944, and how the company's bean counters pegged the sticker price at $24,000. That was too high for some executive, who insisted that the base price be $18,500 for the 1983 model. According to this brief article, the price was set at $18,500 and Porsche lost money on every car, despite raising the base price to $22,500 over the next two years.



I know there was a lot of inflation in the 1980s but going from $18,500 to $42,000 in 10 years is a big increase.



--Bob

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[wjk_glynn]

$18,500 in 1983 is roughly $38K in 2006 (in 350Z or G35-coupe price range)



$42K in 1992 is roughly $61K in 2006 (in Boxster S range)



Pro rated, it went up 60% in 9-years... ouch.



Karl.



PS - CPI Inflation calculator can be found at http://www.bls.gov/bls/inflation.htm

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[RPM]

Too bad that Porsche's response was to abandon the line and bring out the Boxster

I don't think that was a bad decision.



In the early to mid-90s Porsche underwent a significant change in the way it designed and built cars. The 968, as wonderful as it is, essentially represents nicely executed 1976 technology - with a VW heritage! Despite it being "85% new (or whatever bs it was that Porsche tried to peddle)," the market resoundingly rejected the car. Porsche faced bankrupcy and a hostile takeover challenge from Daimler Benz. However, rebounding sales of the 993 bridged the gap just enough to get the company to the 1997 launch of the Boxster.



The next generation of cars, the 986 and 996, represented a tremendous leap in technology. And by technology I don't just mean the cars themselves, but also the manufacturing process. Porsche went from a outmoded assembly line to one of the most advanced robotic lines in the world. This allowed significant cost savings and started Porsche on the path to the financial success that the company enjoys today.



In a funny way, I think all of this speaks volumes about Porsche. One of the least popular and poorest selling cars the company ever presented is still an amazing automobile. How many manufacturers can say that?

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[chris]

Hmm, very interesting inflation figures...



[quote name='wjk_glynn' date='Jul 31 2006, 01:03 PM']$18,500 in 1983 is roughly $38K in 2006 (in 350Z or G35-coupe price range)[/quote]

This seems pretty fair.



[quote name='wjk_glynn']$42K in 1992 is roughly $61K in 2006 (in Boxster S range)[/quote]

Somehow, it doesn't seem too bad, but you can tell it's def on the high side for an entry level car!

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='Bob Kovacs' date='Jul 30 2006, 03:09 PM']Despite the big V8 in the 'Vette and the four-banger in the Porsche, the 968 feels more like a sports car to me. It feels like I'm more in touch with the car and the road in the 968 than in the 'Vette.



--Bob

[right][post="24792"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Would have to agree 100% I've been in a 02 Z06 that was tuned to about 550HP. That car was awesome but what it lacked in road feel Porsche make s a priority. The GM power steering was a little too floaty. Thats what I hate most about American cars, yet I love the LS1. I think its the best engine we ever made and this year even the interior looks nice <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

hmmm - interesting how views differ



i was at the dealership yesterday, dropping the denali off for its 6k service, and i spent some time checking out a vette while i was waiting for my ride



the one thing that stood out to me was how much i hated the interior - it was too tall, oddly angled, and generally very boxy looking - nothing seemed to be where i wanted it - to me, it looked a lot like modules cobbled together, rather than a well thought out layout - i think they built it for a big american for sure



i'm just really not a vette fan (at least, not post 69) - on the new one, i can't stand the pulsy/farty sound of the engine and exhaust, the nose looks too much like an 80's firebird, and the back should have ducked down, instead of squaring off and ending so abruptly - just not my cup of tea



lol - no worries - i can't wear belt buckles that big anyway



still, it sells well - why? because for the money, you just can't buy a better performer



and now we are back on topic with why the 968 tanked - in it's day, there were better performers for less money



good for us though, for sure - i much rather enjoy being the guy that people ask "is that the new porsche?" or "what's that car? it's beautiful", than being just another guy in a vette

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[tom968]

Chevy is happy if the vette just breaks even. It brings people in the

showroom. Porsche doesn't have that luxury.



968 coupes were being sold in the high $30k's which was comparable

to a BMW M3. The list price on the 968 scarred people away. I only

looked at these two cars.



If the 968 seemed expensive at the time remember German auto workers

are the highest paid in the world. Plus, the weak dollar from the late

80's onward forced Porsche to continue raising prices. I was in

Germany in 84 and the strong dollar made cars dirt cheap.



Exclusivity was a factor for me. Production by the early 90's was about

3000 total cars a year. 911's weren't selling either.



Mercedes was rumored to buy them. Worst case scenario Porsche

would have let them. Porsche's stock is preferred-non voting.



What saved their ass was Weissach. The engineering dept. was sub-

contracted out and manufacturers tested there. This kept them

going until the new 911 or 993 came out along with the Boxster.

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[Jacks968]

Ralph has a good point that was confirmed in a Pano article - the designer of the 968 is quoted as saying the 968 was a great car ... but to expensive to build. It was the last of the old production process. The 964's had begun to move to the new production model but the 968 tooling was carried over from Audi. And just think of the complexity of the Cabs. As I understand it - Body built in the Karmenn works - shipped to ASC for conversion - then shipped again to Porsche Stuttgart for final assembly.



All this being said - lets bring all the Transaxle four cylinder cars together and note that Porsche sold 325,000 of these cars in 20 years of production. The 968 was the end of the run - the end of an era of mostly hand built autos - with legendary handling - that represents a great sports car value today.

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[Chris Vais]

Well said!!!

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[orphanowner]

[quote name='Jacks968' date='Aug 3 2006, 12:12 AM']All this being said - lets bring all the Transaxle four cylinder cars together and note that Porsche sold 325,000 of these cars in 20 years of production. The 968 was the end of the run - the end of an era of mostly hand built autos - with legendary handling - that represents a great sports car value today.

[right][post="24938"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Interesting thread...I've been driving 944 based P cars since 1991, probably 8 or 9 in all, not counting the one's I parted out. I remember buying my 1986 944T with 34,000 miles for $13,000 in 1992 and gasping at the $38,900 sticker price! That was an awesome car then and still is today. Think of what a 1992 Vette is like today? Not to bash Vettes, but any sports car of that era is pretty weak in comparison to a 944T. Yeah the switchgear all looks like 1970’s era VW and the suspension was pretty crude for a sports car, but the car was up to track work and outrageous high speed cruising that put the car in a class or two above the norm.



I remember reading in Automotive News that the 944/968 was designed along with the 928 as the new platform that was supposed to move Porsche to the next decade and beyond. I also recall in that same article how inefficient German auto manufacturing was. They said it took 30 to 45 mins per car to Q.C. the production line screw ups. I visited the factory in 1991 and saw this first hand. Cars pulled off of the dyno rollers into a special holding area where veteran line workers would go over the cars and fix mistakes. The same scenario at Mercedes.



I remember working on my older 944's and pulling apart interior panels to find multiple holes drilled for one screw! Heinz had one too many Beck’s at lunch and couldn't line up the panels right. I saw this numerous times on the interior panels and especially the snap holes for the rear carpet. The older 944's didn't get glued in rear carpeting because they frequently had to remove the carpet at the factory to fix inop speakers and fuel gauges. When the production moved to the modernized Neckarsulm Audi plant (the new plant, not the old one) things improved but were still something like 3 man hours behind the Japanese auto production lines. Automotive News had several articles with the results of the time and motion studies for each manufacturer. That has of course changed in the last 10 years...it had to or Porsche would be a division of M-B or BMW.



Compare a 1986 944 with a 1986 911 and you can understand what Porsche was thinking. The 944 was a car that had much better ergonomics, the HVAC worked worlds better, and possesed superbly balanced handling and no snap throttle oversteer. Plus, it came with an engine that was thermodynamically efficient and easily passed US and ROW noise and emission regulations without anything beyond a catalytic converter. The only problem was the largest single market for Porsche rejected the reborn 924’s as a real Porsche and the 928 was priced more as a competitor to the 560SL than a 911 replacement, which kept the enthusiasts from buying in numbers necessary to make a profit.



Too bad, I would have liked to see where the 944 platform would be today if they had kept developing it.

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[RPM]

I'm not sure about the need to further 'develop' the 944 platform. An a 18 year production run is quite good. I assume that the 986/996 platform was far superior in weight and rigidity to the 993 and 968. Likewise, the 968 3.0 liter engine is about as far as a 4 cyl would want to go without taking the Honda 8,000+ rpm route. Six cylinders - or eight - is a far superior solution to get maximum performance.



If further development means a water-cooled, front engine, rear-drive model then the idea is interesting. However, it seems that 10 years after the end of the 924/944/968 models the Porsche lineup of the Boxster, Cayman, and Carrera is about as good a one as any enthusiast could hope for - and better than any other manufacturer's performance model line.

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[orphanowner]

Just to clarify what I meant by further development of the 944/968 platform, I meant front engine, transaxle, hatch or rear deck, sports car. It would have been interesting to see a 6 cylinder or V8 up front with perhaps a turbo, like the Cayenne engine. Losing the final vestiges of the 924 would have been a welcome improvement as well.



I'm 6'5" and barely fit in the rear engined P cars. In fact, I sold a 2003 M3, which had great ergonomics for me, when I got the 968. This particular car meant enough to me in terms of history, track worthiness and HP potential to make the swap worthwhile.

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[sp4149]

[

(Royal Tiger @ Jul 30 2006, 12:45 PM)

Car & Driver did a comparo in 1994 I think with the 3000GT, the 968, the Vette, the 300ZX, the Supra, and the RX-7.  I think there was one more.  The 968 was next to last.  Price was thier biggest complaint.



Too bad that Porsche's response was to abandon the line and bring out the Boxster, although the Boxster must have already been in development at the time. If Porsche had aggressively priced the 968 -- say at a base price of $32K for a coupe and $40 for a cab -- it might have been sold in volumes high enough to reduce manufacturing costs. But then we'd see a lot more 968s on the road and I like having a car that's not as ubiquitous as a Miata

I remember looking at a 968 in a show room in the early 1990s, it was a black coupe and it was over $50K. The dealer had only two new Porsches the other was some form of 911 for over $80K. At the time our 944 has 80K and was eight years old, they offered $3k in trade-in. The dealer sold other cars as well and I am sure stayed in business by directing buyers to other brands that were "more affordable", AKA ones he had in stock. This was in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I recall we went to four dealers in our area, saw only one 968 and a couple other new Porsches, two dealers had zero new cars in their showrooms. You can't sell what you don't have. One of the out of stock showrooms was in Silicone Valley where they seemed to be minting money; price wouldn't have been the problem for many there.



One complaint I have with Car and Driver and other national magazines that test cars, they test them with small stature reviewers. Back then they never mentioned in the review the size of the reviewer, or how large people, say close to 6' would fit. I remember when the Honda Accord came out with wonderous "All World" reviews. I needed a new car and the next month tested one out on a business trip to LA and San Diego. After the two hour drive I couldn't walk when I got out of the car; the steering wheel was so low that when I had the seat close enough to reach the steering wheel, I couldn't apply the brakes. I exchanged it for a Cutlass Cierra. at the rental agency. I then went to a dealer and was told no adjustable steering wheel available, "You just don't fit..." I remembered their 'helpful' attitude when the Accura Legends came out. I'm sure I would have fit but I bought a Pontiac STE instead, one of the later models with Bosch anti-lock brakes. I put 250K miles on it in 13 years; had to get rid of it when I moved; we kept the wifes 944 instead. I spent less total on the STE in 13 years than I have each of the three years we've owned the 968. What the STE and the 968 share is that they don't punish me as a driver. Most cars after a couple of hours of driving I have trouble standing up when I get out. Everything hurts. With the STE and I find with our 968 Cab I feel better after 2-3 hours of driving than when I started. Last month we took the family to Disneyland for the day from San Diego. After a full day, including getting stuck on Splash Mountain at 9pm, we drove home, leaving at 10:30pm; gettng home in Chula Vista after midnight. In spite of spending the day chasing around our three grandkids, I felt great when I got home. This car really is a joy to drive when tired. AS I get older I really appreciate cars that don't wear you out, but reinvigorate you.

-sp4149

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[wjk_glynn]

There have been references to poor Porsche sales in the 1990s in this (and other) thread. I recently read an interesting statistic...



* In 1987, Porsche sold 30,000 cars in the US

* In 1993, they sold approximately 3,700 in the US (more than an 80% drop!)



One forgets how bad it was for them, and their need to turn things around. Its really not surprising they canned the 928 and 968 after 1995 because of the costs of OBD-II compliance, and the significantly greater public response to the Boxster when it was revealed as a show-car in 1992 (or was it 1993?), and the production cost savings introduced by the Boxster/996 design.



Karl.

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