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Thoughts on two 968 Firehawks
#1

Well, we have our second 968 Firehawk car back from RSBarn, and I have been able to track it several times. So I thought a I might report a little on the cars.



The red car (the first one back from RS Barn) has run better than ever. We ran it all last year and it was weak and pushed like a pig. We would go through front tires at an alarming rate, and it just never ran like we knew it had in the past.



Pete at RS Barn took it in and updated everything. The suspension was replaced with Bilstein cups, the header was serviced, a new exhaust system, a custom chip was created, and a myriad of other things were done. The car now is painfully well balanced, and has more pep than it ever has. Temperatures were a worry (we run 100+F regularly at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah) and he walked me through adding an additional oil cooler after we received the car. It seems to have stabilized and is a great car.



The yellow Firehawk has been at best abused. Most of the drive-train was cobbled together 944 stuff, and even the vario-cam was missing. What? no MO30 brakes on a professional race car?!?!?



Pete took it in and rebuilt it from the ground up. When he was done it was spec'ed identically to the red one with the exception of an improved chip map, and a new air box mod. (I'm still trying to figure out how to change the filter Pete :) With the extensive work done some gremlins were unavoidable after the delivery though.



First, the car would run remarkably well for about 2 or three laps. Soon after that though, there would be a sudden snap-oversteer, bringing the car around at random times and circumstances. We tried tire pressures and sway bars, and were going crazy with the lack of improvement. After nearly putting the car into the wall in a fashion I was glad my wife wasn't at the track, we discovered a coolant leak. The radiator at some time was changed to a 944 turbo radiator. The port that would have gone to the radiator was plugged with a cheap rubber cap. This cap was cut by the clamp, and would leak coolant on the front tires at temperature/pressure causing the loss of grip. I replaced this with a piece of radiator hose and a piece of aluminum bar stock, and all is well there now.



Who would have thought a handling problem would go back to the cooling system?



Anyway, now that we were able to run for more than a lap or two, I started having parts failures. First the power steering tensioner strut broke. I fixed it and then it broke again, taking half the Power steering mount, and the alternator tensioner strut with it.



Perplexing.



I did a temporary fix to be able to race using turnbuckles (they actually worked really well) but the alternator actually came off the mount tearing the bolt's threads to shreds. In the process the power steering pump cut into the radiator hose, and the engine temperature soared off the dials. Thus ended my weekend.



In discussing this with Pete, he had a brainstorm about the lower balance shaft gear. The car came to him with SOLID struts, meaning they had been having just the same problems I was having. The lower balance shaft gear can be placed at a 180 from the intended position, and thus instead of dampening the vibrations, it actually magnifies them. With his expert guidance I pulled the gear which was indeed half turned.



As it stands, I need to replace the radiator hose (in hand), and I hope to run tomorrow. If all goes well, the gremlins will be at bay, and I will be able to tap the car's potential. I keep getting moments of its brilliance, but I have been playing problem whack-a-mole too much to really get to see it in action.



Basically it seems that the red car my have slightly better handling, and the yellow car is slightly more torquey out of the turns. It will take time to see if this is the car or the driver, but they are both quite competitive with each other.



I want to thank Pete for his brilliant job in putting both cars together. Even the problems with the yellow car stem from prior to his getting it, and his diagnostic skills were invaluable in getting things worked out.



In short, Pete knows his 968 Porsches. I would not hesitate to recommend him, and am glad we made the investment in shipping the cars halfway across the continent to have him work them over. It was well worth the effort.



I'll report on tomorrows results.
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#2

They sound like great cars. Having 2 must be quite the luxury or maybe its a curse. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



I went to the manual steering rack and haven't regretted it. I no longer even have to think about belts, pumps, turnbuckles, leaks, etc. Light and simple goes a long way on a race car.



What kind of times do you turn at Miller? That place is unbelievable.
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#3

I agree with Eric about the lack of hassles with a manual steering rack.



Once you're up to speed, it doesn't really make much of a difference. I know some will disagree and say that in an enduro, power steering will help. All I can say is that I haven't been there yet, so I don't know.



Right now, I can't imagine racing for more than 30 minutes at a time without being completely exhausted!



Jason
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#4

I've done a 2hr 50 minute enduro stint with the manual rack. Its not bad, but you do feel it the next day. It sounds like a long time but it is over before you know it.
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#5

Well, the overheat caused far more trouble than we thought initially. As it stands it looks like we have a blown head gasket. Fun, fun, fun. Get your balance shaft keyed correctly boys & girls!



The red car won its event running in the 1:53 range on the east track. The 968 was made for how Miller is classing races in MPRA (Miller Park Racing Association). Less than 3.0L race as "Small Bore" with it being broken out further as 1-2L and 2-3L sub classes. A turbo bumps you up a sub-class. With a 2.9L engine, we can wreak havok on the classing <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Yes, Miller is fantastic. When you are running the full track and are running down the 2/3 mile straight flat out for what seems forever, it is all you can do to keep your foot down. It just seems unnatural. My favorite section are the turn 1,2,3,4 combo on the full and outer track. Wide sweeping curves that are blisteringly fast when done right, and will get you easily if you don't. Lots of fun.



As for power steering: I ran all last year without it. Now, it was the power steering rack with the pump removed, so it was stiff as anything. I agree, at speed it didn't seem so bad, but when I had it go out a few weeks ago, the difference was way more drastic than I had anticipated. Manageable yes, but much more physical effort.



I think steering is a fish or cut bait thing. Either go all the way and put in a manual rack and everything (which then becomes questionable for PCA events as there never was a manual rack in a 968) or keep the power steering in. Our troubles weren't the power steering per-se. Those problems were a consequence of the balance shaft gear being mis-keyed. On the red car it has been flawless since putting it back in.



Don't be afraid of power steering. I really think that you can place the car where you want it more precicely with the power steering. It is also less physically demanding. Both good things in my book. A manual rack would go a long way to making up the differences, but I don't think it would get it quite there.



Just my $.02
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#6

Hey, are those 2 Firehawks, Dennis and Tom's cars? - If they were not in top shape last year - I am really going to dread being on the track with them this year!!! Are you guys going to Daytona? Hope you both are well!!!
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#7

A final report on the engine troubles:



We had Max from RS Barn come out and help me (read: he did it) re-do the head. It was so warped that we had to have it kilned and bent back into shape. We got it together, and with a few small issues we were able to quickly sort out, I was up and running again.



I really enjoyed having Max out, and he knows his stuff almost as well as Pete. I would never think twice about having him work on my car.



Since then I have changed out the radiators in both cars, the rotors on the red car, and other sundry things that were necessary. The hope is that we are ready for next year, and will have a relatively trouble free year.



We just ran the PCA Enduro at Miller Motorsports Park. I ran the whole thing, and got second in E class. My brother and dad ran the red car, and came in fourth. My brother also got the hot lap of the three of us with a 3:29 on the full track. To break the 3:30 mark, and in 50 degree temperatures with a damp track is quite an accomplishment. I am really proud of him for that.



We did have some issues getting a log book on the yellow car. Originally they wanted to class us as a GT car instead of a Firehawk, and thus E. After many gyrations they gave us a short punch list of necessary changes, and gave us a one race exemption. More critically they want us to come up with a list of what constitutes a Firehawk car. The intent being that since no one really knows what a Firehawk car consists of difinitively, they are really just guessing when they tech one. Pete has agreed to work with me to pull a classification list together to assist in future events.



Hopefully this will also have the practical upshot of making it possible for someone to upgrade a standard 968 to Firehawk status for club racing purposes.



When it all comes together I'll post something here.



John
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#8

Very nice that Max got you fixed up and very nice results for the three of you.



Congrats
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#9

It would be awesome if you could post up the listing of differences for the Firehawk car. I know that I would at least be interested in the possibility of running in E as a Firehawk...
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#10

I hope to post the list. What really matters though, and this is the goal, is that PCA come to terms with the definition. Once there is something definitive there, that is what will be important in upgrading or tracking a car.



There are some changes that are verified, but may be controversial. For instance, our red car had altered cams and extra long valves. These were in really bad shape when we rebuilt the engine. In fact, according to Pete, they appeared to not so much be altered for power as fuel economy. This was actually one of the 968s great strengths in the Firehawk series, and the consequent reduction in pit stops granted an otherwise outclassed car a great advantage.



The problem is, PCA is really tight on modifications to that degree, and I don't know that they will approve all the verified variations and alterations.



So, that being the case, I'll work with Pete and try and pull something together, and I then we can see what PCA rules on the specifics.



John
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#11

this is one of my main gripes about pca - they are so uptight, that they cut their nose off to spite their own face - previously agreed upon race specs like the firehawk should be grandfathered in forever



in scca, you can run any vintage prepared race car in a production class - you wouldn't, because they now allow more mods that make the car faster, but you could if you were so inclined



if they want to have it all be showroom stock, then that's how they should name it - i keep thinking that it feels as if there are a few guys who just want to make sure that their car wins, and they get themselves on the rules committees and such (a lot like my homeowner's association)



keep plugging away at it - rules can be changed - i am going to be attacking one in the not too distant future - i want to lift the weight restriction on cabs - we should either be able to increase hp to compensate for the 154lbs of extra weight, or we should be allowed to remove weight to make the same weight as the hatchback, or be allowed in a different class
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#12

I'm sure I'll be corrected here...so fire away...



My understanding is that the issue with a "Firehawk" badged car is that they were purchased off the showroom floor and then modified to make a race series, therefore, you can't just point to certain elements like you could a Factory race car/race series (i.e. Rothman's Turbo Cup). I made the mistake of thinking that one trademark of a Firehawk was "sunroof delete" for instance and found out I was wrong. I believe, the series cars were designed around "performance specs" rather than specific modifications, therefore it is extremely hard to decipher the edges of the "Firehawk" mark.



I will be interested in seeing the results of the list, Pete is sure the right person to ask, and he also knows how to navigate the PCA rules committees since his Flywheel is the only aftermarket Single Mass Flywheel approved for 968s in PCA racing.



Regards,



Jay
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#13

    John,

We need to find out the person,s to discuss this with. I worked with Donna Amico on flywheel but I'm sure there are others.

What's funny is all engine and suspension mods on Firehawks weren't all that good but what was available and what may have sneeked under the rules at the time.

After resurecting my Firehawk (not completed) I keep finding more stuff

Pete
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#14

Where do you find these Firehawk's for sale? Pete, your car looks awesome!
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#15

Mine was in a dusty Barn (not mine) for 7 years.

When I loaded Firehawk in my trailer an old timer who works on the farm said,

"Mister, Whatever you paid for that was too much"

At the time I pretty much agreed.

Pete
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#16

[quote name='RS Barn' post='42375' date='Oct 15 2007, 06:25 PM']Mine was in a dusty Barn (not mine) for 7 years.

When I loaded Firehawk in my trailer an old timer who works on the farm said,

"Mister, Whatever you paid for that was too much"

At the time I pretty much agreed.

Pete[/quote]



I would argue that the yellow car was similar shape, of course you would know better than me Pete. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Realize that the firehawk cars were beat to hell and back again when they were raced, and then when they were left by the series (and I meant it that way), it appears that most either just sat and rotted, were caniballized, or run into the ground. Unfortunately the red one ticked two of those boxes and the yellow one is three for three.



If it is an original Firehawk, either someone put some serious time and money into it to get it good, or you will need to do so. There will be no free rides in Firehawk land!



John
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#17

What were the main differences between a FH and a regular 968? What was the weight and the HP?



Miike
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#18

[quote name='RS Barn' post='42150' date='Oct 8 2007, 05:53 PM'][Image: attachment.php?thumbnail=4044]John,

We need to find out the person,s to discuss this with. I worked with Donna Amico on flywheel but I'm sure there are others.

What's funny is all engine and suspension mods on Firehawks weren't all that good but what was available and what may have sneeked under the rules at the time.

After resurecting my Firehawk (not completed) I keep finding more stuff

Pete[/quote]



Where did you get the head light covers from (on the white car). Can you remove the headights all together and fit those?
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#19

Hi John, keep us up to date with the progress on your tracking of the 2 Firehawks, interesting stuff. I also just wanted to let everyone know just in case they are interested my Firehawk is for sale - I have it listed on Rennlist if anyone wants some details. The car is totally sorted out and setup really well, but recent health concerns have probably ended my racing days and it's back to the occassional DE's and autocrosses, my loss, someone else's gains. I am also working on that info you requested. Hope to get it to you soon!!!



Take Care,



Lou
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