[Rap]

So just like any good red blooded American Republican patriot I dutifully have listened to the two debates. I try to keep up on reading the news and listening to the positions of the two parties. I'm not the smartest guy but I hope surely not the dimmest. What I'm not seeming to understand are the tax positions being bandied about. Now don't tell me they are all lies or damn statistics.

Without giving away what you each earn, not my business or purpose of discussion, but how many of us already choke on our tax rates? I already feel gored! It perhaps to some degree is the cost of working hard and achieving some measure of success. But I'm feeling somewhat demonized. By the way, I don't earn over a million dollars. Not even close! The new taxes coming under obamacare to me are somewhat scary. The talk about raising rates which includes those earning over $250000 is starting to nettle me. If you work in NYC, this is not enough to live comfortably in Manhatten. If I'm wrong tell me!

So am I the only one who is unsettled by this?

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[ds968]

Three words : FLAT TAX RATE.. for everyone, regardless of earnings . As for the current tax burden ( after one adds the Fed and State taxes ) , which I can only equate with prison rape, I'm even more upset about where my money is spent by the f-ing Gov't than I am about the actual amount itself..

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[Rap]

Come on, stop being such an old whus and tell me how you really feel!

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[L8APEXER]

I would agree with a flat tax if dividend, distribution and capital gains income were all treated as ordinary income and you exempted those that make under 75k per year. I hope everyone that advocates for a flat tax though realizes that all of your deductions are gone. Home interest gone. Child care credit gone. Earned income credit gone. Then you end up in a worse place then you started unless you are in a position that you those deductions don't make a significant dent in your personal cash flow over the course of the year.



I would like to know what taxes that are coming to you under Obamacare that you think are going to affect you? FTW: I am a business owner and am in tune with what the implications of the AHCA are.



PS: If you think you are being gored, my friend in Germany bought a BMW 135 for $52K...thanks to the VAT

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm more concerned about the attitude toward the relationship between revenues and spending we have in this country, along with much of Europe and Japan. Somehow, we think we can simultaneously have cradle-to-grave benefits, a massive defense effort, and low taxation. The end result of this fantasy is enormous debt. It pains me to say it, but the Scandinavian countries seem to have it right - they've made a conscious decision to live in a society with generous levels of government benefits, but are willing to pay for it with high levels of taxation, resulting in relatively little debt. Personally, I'd rather do with less government services to maintain reasonably low taxes, but it has to be one or the other. This business of having it both ways can't end well. Just look at Greece.

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[flash]

i don't think i pay enough taxes. of course, i'm not going to pay any more than i have to, so i play by the rules they put out there and take advantage of every one of them, but it generally means i only pay about 8-10%. there are just that many deductions i can easily take.



i agree that a flat tax rate would be great, all except for having to figure out what the 4 million people, who make their living related to the tax system, would have to do, since they would be unemployed (tax attorneys, accountants, irs employees, etc). minor wrinkle there that would have to be worked out.



i think we gripe way too much. i don't feel like i'm paying too much in taxes, except for the part where i don't think i'm getting my money's worth.



now if we had a proper health care system that came to us for those taxes, like the rest of civilization......................

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[Dimma]

[quote name='L8APEXER' timestamp='1350100375' post='133771']

PS: If you think you are being gored, my friend in Germany bought a BMW 135 for $52K...thanks to the VAT[/quote]

That's a steal, in Holland we'd pay around $ 72.000 for that car thanks to VAT and a few more taxes ....



By the way, in Holland we pay income tax in scales : 52 % over earnings above $ 73.000, 42 % over earnings above $ 25.000 ; 33 % over the first 25.000 ....



Now we're talking taxes, aren't we ?



But still a happy Dutch guy ....

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[ds968]

By the way, when I said that I resent where and how the government spends my tax money I was not necessarily referring to the current administration ; I meant government in a very general and non-partisan sense. All big spenders, and wasters, just various incremental differences depending on party ideology..



I don't know if this number is correct because it sounds too good to be true, but I believe the assertion made by experts was that a

9 % flat tax personal income rate ( Federal ) and a mere 2 % ( again, Fedderal ) add-on to all goods sold would generate the same level of revenue as the current convoluted tax system does .



And I obviously need money left over for some sleep medications since it's 2 : 20 am and I'm online.. Or, I could just listen to any politician speak about campaign promises , that should put me to sleep ..

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[tamathumper]

I think it's brilliant how the conversation in our country has been turned to how much each person pays as a percentage, vs. how much each person *does* to pull their own (burgeoning) weight. At least here in NY's capitol, there are vocal groups of people wearing signs and finger-wagging about how evil "rich" people are, but by and large they are the same people who don't pay any taxes at all, and they're the same people who don't have a great position in life due largely to their own decisions.



I'm all for changing the conversation from "pay your fair share" to "do your fair share" - regardless of what I pay in taxes, I'm always going to be really torqued if I feel there are a lot of people doing nothing and then laughing at- and hating me for it.

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[flash]

why not both?



no free checks without either work or proof of attendance in a approved re-training program, and very real limits on duration. then, we pass a stiff national panhandling law, so we can toss those people who would prefer to sit on the street corner in jail, where they have to do one or the other. then, one way or another, we are getting something for that dollar we are handing out.

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[968Syncro]

The problem isn't that federal taxes are too high, the problems are 1. that the federal government is too big and, 2. that governments are very poor at executing on certain operations that supposedly help the population.



Consider the basic reason why a national government exists: a group of free individuals decide to pool their efforts and resources into a common entity for the common good because that is the most efficient way to implement certain needs. For example, you can't have a million people each individually trying to defend against enemies -- the efforts have to be aggregated into a common group for an efficient result.



So, in order, the purpose of the federal government is:

1. defend the nation.

2. define and regulate a money.

3. create and enforce laws that protect the citizens from each other.



I am loosing it here ... please help me with the definition of items 4 thru 100,000 essential obligations that the federal government should be doing?



Roland

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[968Syncro]

Also, forgot to add one point: Although the federal government relied on taxes in its early stages (the population benefiting from the common purpose had to pay a bit), in the early 1800s the government ended those "internal" taxes and relied solely on "external" sources of revenue, excise taxes that other nations paid : i.e. if you want to ship goods to our country then you have to pay a fee. There was no "internal revenue" at that time.

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[tamathumper]

Roland, #2 is no longer true. Our government has given control of the money supply to "The Fed", which is not a government institution.

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[Cloud9...68]

Like it or not, the accepted definition of what the government "should" be doing to "promote the common good" has expanded radically over the past 80 years or so. Not sure there's much we can do about it, though, because when people are polled as to whether they think the government spends too much money, a significant majority answer "yes", but when examples are offered as to where to cut, nothing, other than, by the slimmest of margins, foreign aid, is selected by the majority. I remember there was a provocative cover story on Time magazine a few years ago, which stated in big block letters, "We're all socialists now." "Socialism" is a term that's too loosely bandied about in the public discord, so I wouldn't go as far as to agree with the Time article, but it is very true that despite all the howling about the debt, the populace really does love its government goodies.

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[Rap]

Cloud I agree. Taking advantage of all the tax breaks or services that can be provided to those who qualify eventually create an expectation. How many of us enjoy the advantages of the mortgage interest expense deduction? Or even the charitable deduction? Would you not buy a home without it? Would you not give money to charities you support? I suspect the answer would be no. I'm not sure a tax fairness exists as a matter of policy across the economic divide. What's ok for one may not be palpable for another. Do I want to pay more taxes? No. Will I take advantage of the tax code to minimize my tax consequences? Yes. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Oliver Wendell Holmes said it is entirely legal to utilize the tax code to reduce our taxes. As long as it was legal. Legal members jump in I'm a law school dropout in case I've butchered that remembrance. Talking about tax fairness by demonizing those who make either x amount of $'s or those who make over a certain amount is merely class warfare rhetoric. Talking about spreading this need for tax change over the economic spectrum where everyone participates to some degree toward a collective and societal good seems a better way to engage in this debate. Flash I think most of us would like you to do a scheduled time that you could stream over the forum to teach us how we could be as successful at reducing our overall tax rate like you! Lol

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[flash]

we do need to close the loophole on donations to churches. if you want to give money to your local cult, that's fine, but you don't get a tax deduction.



mortgage deductions encourage buyers. that's good for the economy.



lol - that's easy - no session required. all you need to do is start a business that loses money.

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[tamathumper]

Not everybody with a primary mortgage gets the interest deduction - it gets cut back if you "make too much" by applying AMT - Alternative Minimum Tax. Just another way America punishes success.

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[greg968CAB]

My current effective tax rate for federal state and local is 47% of every dollar we make. Our public schools continually fail NCLB and AYP. So I spend another $7000 a year sending my kid to a private school. All told Its just too much. When the government keeps half of what the average middle class person makes in a year, you have to wonder why you are working so hard to be middle class or better. Our police and fire protection are appreciated. I like having a jail and a court system. I like having road maintenance done. But the external benefits I have from my taxes just don't seem to balance out what I am actually paying every year.



You cant assume anything but eventually when faced with overwhelming repetition of anecdotal experience- you have to wonder exactly why I am forking over as much taxes as I am. In a very real sense I feel like I am punished for attempting to be successful.



May have or may not have told this story. But A few months back I was at the local Publix Grocery store. Purchasing my order, while waiting for woman in front of me to pay her order off. Whips out not one but two EBT cards. Takes her literally 10 minutes to pay for it, while also being utterly contemptuous to the cashier and the bag boy. Woman was dressed to the nines. Had what appeared to be real gold jewelry. Had a Louis Vuitton hand bag which was either real or one heck of a good fake. Anyway she gets done and leaves with the bag boy.



Store managers come up and offer multiple apologies for my inconvenience and advise that the woman is always a difficult customer. Saying at least she had not also had her children in line this time or I would still be waiting. So I finish up and walk out to the parking lot.



So what do I see? Sitting in the handicapped prime door front access spot is one utterly beautiful McClaren SLR Mercedes. And you guess who was getting into it. So WIC benefits SNAP benefits and EBT are that woman's right?



A few weeks later my wife remarked that she had seen my dream car. Then she said and you wouldn't believe who was driving it. Whereupon she reiterated a similar experience.



Now maybe she is a widow at age 24. Maybe she became the custodian of half a dozen stair stepped kids. MAybe the kids aren't even hers. Maybe she came up with a huge invention and now has only a couple of left over assets after a dramatic failure which now makes her eligible for government assistance. I don't and can't know.



BUT:



If you own a McClaren SLR and have fallen on hard times, should you not sell the car before you take money from other people to pay for your basic needs? A McClaren is a luxury. By the same token if I fell on hard times, I'd be selling my Porsche first before I ever went to the government for EBT even if I qualified for it.



I mused with my wife a couple of weeks back that if we simply stopped paying for everything for a few months, demonstrated a severe decline in income, and entered the second wave mortgage federal refinance program that we could accomplish the following.



1. Free cell phones.

2. Free internet.

3. Free food for families.

4. Free food for a child under 14.

5. Subsidized water service.

6. Subsidized electrical service.

7. Subsidized gas service.

8. Free health care for our child.

9 Free healthcare for our family.

10. Drastic reduction in mortgage payment.

11. Benefit from an effective tax rate of 23%.

Both have at least 23 hours a week each to devote to whatever we wanted to do.



Only downside? We'd be dependent on these government handouts. We would not be able to save for our future. We would be dependent upon the government if we faced a financial emergency.



Still, maybe we should do it for a couple years justto see how nice it is not to pay 47% effective tax in a year.



Dont get me wrong. You have to pay taxes. You need to pay for protective services and the legal services. You need to pay for scientific research and national defense. And you need some form of regulatory process funded so that eveyone has a fair chance. But beyond the $400 toilet seats, the utter waste and abuse of our tax code and spending has begun to approach the levels of the end of Byzantium.



At some point it will be easier to simply quit trying to get ahead and settle for what the government redistributes. I like the FairTax. I'd support a flat tax of 10%. I'd even support an elimination of all deductions in the current tax code provided the maximum tax rate was 25% and that rate was only implemented on gross earnings from wages above $500,000. Further I'd take the capital gains tax and drop it to 2% and apply the estate tax at the federal level only to property valuations above 5,000,000. while eliminating the AMT altogether.

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[flash]

AMT is a bugger. i hate that. we've slammed into that one before. we got better, and spent more money, figuring out how legally to structure things so as not to do that.



we should also create a lower threshold for the inheritance tax. something like the first 2 million is free. that would allow most middle class families to keep their inheritance, and likely the house, and resultantly move upward.

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[tamathumper]

The government isn't interested in helping people move upward. Period.

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