[xrad]

I was planning to recover my seats with new leather from 928leathershop. It would cost 1500$. Then I happened to examine the seat belts closely after removing the plastic cover. For the front seat passengers, the plastic cover at the floor mount covers over about 4 stitched folds of the seat belt. This stitching is obviously made to tear when G forces exceed the stitch strength. HOWEVER, I believe that these seat belts are made to work in conjunction with the airbags. If you disable the airbags and use these seatbelts, I am not sure that you would be adequately protected, especially if you sit closer to the wheel and dash. Once the stitches rip, there is about 12 inches of excess belt, this plus belt stretch is probably about 18 inches (just a guess, but too much for me). I looked at all the belts in my other cars and there is no folding of the belts. They may have some form of play in the rewind cylinder, but these seem to lock stiffly.



OK, those are my thoughts. Because of this and because I like to drive fast and sometimes off the road, I am going to change the setup for my personal use. I just gave a deposit to



http://redlinerennsport.com/Index.html

http://redlinerennsport.com/SafeguardTestimonials.html



for one of their Safeguard bars. ' Harness bars ' are sold by several companies and I almost bought one. But when I read the fine print, it says DO NOT DIRECTLY ATTACH seat belt to the bar. I have seen several instances of 944/951/968 owners attaching belts directly to the bar..bad idea as bar is not made to take the force, but rather support the force like a fulcrum (meaning you have to use standard attach points)



Anyway, with Safeguard product, the belts can be directly attached to the bar and the bar has four hard point mounts to rear seat belt locations. Additionally, you could weld another two attachment points to the upper front passenger B pillar belt mount as well. This bar now has the strength and locating points to mount belt directly and hold a person back in an accident. So I plan to get this bar, a new set of seats with belt guides and start using a four point system. The new belts (I like Sparco products) ..have built in stretch. I may have to relocate the one seat point to the tunnel (with proper support)..maybe...will see



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

the primary problem i have with that unit is that it provides NO rollover protection - no matter how much it looks like it does



the reason is that there are no landing plates at the bottom (required for PCA and SCCA) - the only thing preventing it from punching right through the floor is the shear load capacity of the lower bolts



even as only a harness bar, it is potentially dangerous - in the event of a rollover, it is highly likely that the unit will fail even as a harness bar, as the mounting points will break loose, and then the belts are attached to nothing, and then neither are you



that is EXACTLY what motivated me to start the design on the hardtop unit

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[xrad]

Good concerns. I already thought of that and plan to get an unpainted version so that I can weld multi angle plates at lower mount points and a few extra angle pipe supports. This bar saves me alot of work. rear seat coming out , too.

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[flash]

if you add the frame mounted 3/16" minimum thickness steel plates, then at least it won't be as likely to punch through - it still won't do much of anything for rollover without a rearward angled leg, and won't pass any spec for a roll bar, but i suppose it's better than nothing - should work as a harness bar though



p.s. - the unit i am working on will not require removal of the back seat either (unless you have an early car) - the unit you show will also require removal or modification to the rear seat of an early car if you add the needed plates



i'm still working on pricing, but i anticipate it being a lot less than the cab unit, due to being able to automate some of the work

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[benspeeder]

I'm one for overdoing the safety. I feel nervous when I'm on the track with no cage or rollbar.



For the $$ I'd have a fabricator weld in a club certified rollbar that also serves as a harness bar. Cutting them out is no big deal and can be done with basic tools. I think the days of bolt-in bars and cages are going to draw to a close in a few years.



I went to the Redline site - he's got some great work on there and some roll cage stuff that must be for street only 'cause it'd never pass tech.



I'm shopping a cage builder right now - looking like John Weisberg will put in my cage. He's an SCCA guy whose got a ton of cages out on the track. Great prices too - but he's up in Rochester NY - WAAAAY up there.



Cheers,



Ben



PS - I've seen about 4-5 bolt in cages that punched the feet through the floor on hard rollover.

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[xrad]

Thanks Ben and Flash. Still shopping around. I just want a half cage/roll bar/harness bar that's at least legal for basic track stuff. Went over to the engineers place again and we checked the pics of the harness bar out again. In order to get it on the sill, it has to be wider. Looks like it might be too much to get the Safeguard harness bar up to spec and I might as well just get a half cage anyway....

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[flash]

and that is precisely why i started making stuff for the cabs, and now working on the one for the hardtop

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[benspeeder]

That's a good play on going for the half cage - you'll always know you picked the best and safest option.

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[xrad]

I'm from Jersey, and my Momma always said I was smart! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[rob76turbo]

Xrad,



Please keep us posted as I am in the same situation as you. I looked real hard at the Redline harness bar too. I do not mind pulling the rear seats out (nobody uses them anyway...).



Next question for you, what are you going to do about seats? I am thinking of Sparco Sprint V. Do you know if you have to purchase additonal peices of hardware to install, or can we use the sliders off our our stock seats?



Thanks,

Rob t.

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[flash]

for the unit i am working on, you would only have to remove the bottom part of the rear seat in early cars, and if you wanted to use the rear seats, just install the later pads- i will be looking at the early pad this week, because i also think i figured out a way for a mod to it to allow it to stay in the car - i'll let you know how that turns out



the big thing though is to determine what you want from any unit



for rollover protection, you MUST have frame mounted landing plates which provide dispersion of load perpendicular to the application of force - you must also have a pair of legs that are rearward facing and diagonal to the main hoop, also terminating on frame mounted landing plates, beginning no more than 6" from the highest point of the main hoop, and with no less than 30 degree inclusion, and no more than 60



for harness retention, you must have a bar that is no higher than the point at which the belts pass through the seats, no lower than 30 degrees, and must be capable of preventing sliding of the harnesses (either by proximity or physical retention), and not exceed maximum belt length



tough recipe no matter which way you look at it, but it can be done - i should have real info at the end of this week

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[xrad]

Hi Rob: i have a few yards of German Velour left over from the carpet project so I might make an aluminum shelf and carpet it or the floor. As far as seats, I have not had the time to look at mount systems and deciding between 4 or 5 point and creating the floor mounts. PLUS the turbo project...PLUS the move....

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