[Cloud9...68]

Well, this is one I haven't run into before. I was driving along yesterday, when I heard a faint noise coming from the general direction of the front of the car. I pulled into a Walmart parking lot as quickly as I could, and turned off the key. Huh? The engine is still running! Can't be... So I quickly popped the hood, and sure enough it was running - no, wait, it kind of sounding like it was still running, but the alternator belt wasn't turning. No, the it wasn't the engine, it was the starter, still whirring merrily 'round and 'round without the key in the ignition! So I madly sprinted into Walmart, bought a $2 crescent wrench, and disconnected the negative battery cable, which brought the theatrics to a halt.

The starter is a rebuilt unit I had installed about a week ago, so I suspected that I managed to allow the cables to touch, so, after having the car towed home, I took a look, and no, the cables are all a comfortable distance from each other. Next, suspecting the starter had an internal short, I removed the starter, and took it to my local Oreilley's to test. Everything is normal; no internal shorts, or any other problems with the starter. The front of the splines are a little banged up, probably during the time it was turning while the engine was running, but not too badly.

The guy behind the counter at Oreilley's suggested it might be either the ignition switch, or ignition relay, stuck closed. He thought the relay may be a more likely candidate, and suggested I replace the ignition relay with another one in the fuse box that looks similar. This seems like a reasonable thing to go try (though I'm a little wary of swapping a pair of relays just based on how they look). Does anybody else have any suggestions as to what may have caused this very strange problem, and what else I should check before putting the starter back? Thanks.

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[raydog]

You are lucky. Last weekend my 944 went through my garage door stopping inches from the 968 parked inside. Two weeks before I had replaced the electrical end of the ignition switch. I was getting stuff out of the trunk and when I closed the hatch, evidently the switch I had put in separated and the contacts made and turned the engine over and into the door. The car never actually started but the damage was done. Cost me a new starter since it burned out, I fixed the switch by peening together the halves that were never properly crimped together, had to replace garage door glass, 3 of 4 panels broke. The door itself is salvageable, I picked up the rollers off the floor, reinstalled and straightened the door out. My 1 year old paint job also got screwed up from the broken glass falling on the car, looks like a bunch of paint chips on the nose. Insurance wouldn't cover a thing. Like I said... consider yourself VERY lucky.

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[Cloud9...68]

Raydog,

I think my problem is different from yours. While the engine was running, the starter was trying to engage, but of course it was not successful because the flywheel was spinning too fast. And once I pulled the key out, the starter was just free-wheeling, which was disconcerting to listen to (a mall security guard was staring at my car with the most perplexed look on his face as I sprinted back to it, wrench in hand to disconnect the negative battery cable), but it wasn't doing any harm.

So, for those who have had a chance to read this thread, do you think the ignition relay is the culprit? I did a little research on Google, and it sure sounds like that's my problem.

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[nissanite]

I had this happen the day after running through deep water on the highway. I removed the starter & lubbed the gear & shaft. Also a tech told me that the power can jump across the power lead & starter switched lead on the starter. I cleaned the starter when it was out & separated the wires when it went back in. I have not had any issues since. I also heard that carbon tracing on the solinoid can cause a power jump but was not proven.

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[ds968]

Well, what has been proven is that those damn things ( either the starter or the solenoid in it ) can and will start on their own, at any time day or night and just hope your car is not left in gear and without the handbrake on, when you park it. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] Don't ask me how I know [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif[/img]

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[Cloud9...68]

Interesting that this has happened to others in the past. I don't remember seeing any posts on it.

As I said in my first post, my starter is recently rebuilt, and has been in the car less than a week (during which time it worked flawlessly, and cured the grinding problem I had with my old starter), and the wires weren't close to touching each other. I hadn't driven through any water that I can recall. My money is still on the starter relay, which I think is relay G2 in the fuse/relay box. Rockauto.com has them for a whopping $11.25.

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[raydog]

In my case it was due to a faulty replacement part, but I brought it up because it can happen anytime anywhere. I was lucky it happened at my house. I didn't have the Ebrake on since my driveway is level. But still Cloud it sounds like the problem could have something to do with your ignition switch

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[Cloud9...68]

This is a bit off topic, but both DS and raydog have mentioned it, so I'll go ahead and comment on it. This is only the second time in the five-and-a-half years that I've owned this car that it has left me stranded. And I know there are plenty of much older cars on the road. But I have to begin to wonder to what degree we're driving ticking time bombs, with literally hindreds of aging electrical connections, wires, belts, hoses, and a host of mechanical and vacuum devices that could go kablooey at any time. My 12-year-old daughter was riding with me when my car did its little starter drama, and I can tell you, it will be a long time, if ever, she agrees to ever let me drive her in the 968 again.

I guess what I'm thinking out loud is, what is the safe, reliable, useful life of a car? Obviously a car can be made to function indefinitely, but at what point does one have to come to the stark realization that the classic beauty sitting in their garage can't really be counted on to get them back from their intended destination? I don't care how handy someone is with a wrench, or if your 968 is purely a recreational weekend toy; if an obscure part decides to give up its ghost while you're stuck in traffic, you're looking at a tow truck as your ride home, which is a 100% negative experience, no matter how you spin it.

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[ds968]

quite frankly i am surprised at the infrequency of electrical gremlins in cars of this age. my memory is not what it used to be but i'm pretty sure i did not have many wiring related problems with my 944 either, and I logged more than 250,000 miles in about 18 years ownership.
so maybe porsche did manage to make half way decent electrical systems and although there are obviously glitches that happen here and there perhaps we may not be left stranded as often as we would if we'd be driving fiats or maseratis ( had both and i swear they must have borrowed their electrical technology from lucas in england [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] ) or.. any given british car for that matter [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

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[PorscheDude]

I would not worry about a "ticking time bomb".
These car a very well built.

The useful life of a car is dictated by it's care. Which could exceed 100 years.
Just go to a classic car show.

I sold my first 944 with 215k on the clock. It was very reliable car.

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm not ready to send the 968 to the glue factory just yet, but I have to disagree a bit about the useful life of a car being dictated by its care. I agree that the <i>functional</i> life of a car, given proper care, is 100 years+, but I'm talking about <i>reliable</i> life. You can be the most meticulous owner on earth as far as doing all the prescribed maintenance (oil, filters, coolant, brake pads, rotors, and fluid, and on and on an on), and keep it garaged and out of the elements. But no matter how much you fuss and fret over a car, the bottom line is that it's a pretty complex collection of dozens of systems, composed of thousands of parts, each of which has a finite useful life, and can fail without warning. I'm guessing, and this is just a guess, but I would say that at about the 20-year mark, you'd better start allowing a cushion of a couple of extra hours anytime you venture out.

Now, on to order that ignition relay...

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[Cloud9...68]

Whew! The ignition relay (I never knew such a thing existed) indeed seems to have been the culprit, because I've driven the car quite a bit the last couple of days since I installed the new one, with no recurrence of the self-starting, perpetually-running starter syndrome. I have to give credit to the guy behind the counter at the nearby Advance Auto Parts; he nailed it. So, now it's back to tackling the rather long list of annoying things that need attending to on the car...

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[Johannvb]

Thanks for posting! I have learned yet another thing about my car [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

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[Cloud9...68]

Yes, the experience was almost surreal - the starter just kept turning and turning, even after I pulled the key out of the ignition. You should have seen the look on my 12-year-old daughter's face - she seriously thought the car was about to explode.

You've been very smart to replace all of your car's sensors - these things have a finite life, so it's best to replace them before you actually have to. Based on my experience, maybe that applies to some of the relays as well. We all know about the DME relay; maybe there are a few others that need to be considered as well. Fortunately, they're not expensive.

Also, I think we should all probably be putting money aside to spring for a set of new electrical cables (which I believe are now being made by Higher Connections, a sponsor of this site). 15+ years of exposure to the elements means we're all on borrowed time with the original cables...

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[Anchorman]

If you want to hear tales of cables...and these are NOT fables...

Simply put - at the least, inspect - and likely REPLACE - the power cables. Mine were truly, seriously, and dangerously deteriorated at about 10 years, 120,000 miles.

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[Cloud9...68]

Many years ago, I saw a great article about how to extend the life of your car indefinitely, detailing the life expectancy of each and every major component. The article recommended replacing things like the alternator, starter, water pump, fuel pump, etc., when the car hit the mileage at which it became statistically likely for these parts to start failing. With modern cars, the list is quite a bit longer, when you consider all the sensors, switches, relays, etc. However, the list is certainly finite (with the power cables needing to take their place at the top of the list), so it is by no means an insurmountable task to systematically replace each of these parts when the car hits a certain age/mileage. Johann has set a great example for us all by doing so on his car, and Flash's work to lower under-hood temperatures, which will certainly extend the life of the parts that dwell there, is also very valuable.

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[rxter]

Ah, a philosophical rather than a technical question. That means I can participate [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

As a daily driver, forget it. 15 years is the max. Been there, done that, with lots of cars - Fords, Buicks, Toyotas, Nissans, Mazdas. Reliability becomes a problem when you are trying to get to work every day.

However, as weekender or a blvd cruiser? Another 5 to 10 years I would say. Before the 968, river and lake boats were my toys, my passion. 16 to 22 feet. Runabouts, go fast, bass boast, ski boats, all types, mostly fast and fun to drive though.

Anyway, those things break and/or leave you stranded regularly, and for every conceivable reason - electrical, fuel, seized pistons, leaks, drain plug left in the truck 300 yards up the ramp, keys dropped at the fueling dock whilst reaching for beer, etc etc. Those were the days......

Calling a tow truck with a cell phone on dry land is a piece of cake - nothing to it.

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[Cloud9...68]

Rxter,

Well said - an accurate and sobering assessment, imho. It all comes down to what you use the car for. Mine isn't a daily driver, and never will be, so I'm not too worried, but as the years tick by, I'm sure I will start to think twice about which car to take, if the trip has no margin for a delayed trip home.

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