Hello from France - Printable Version

Hello from France - Printable Version

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Hello from France - fr_JPi - 04-22-2019

Hi everyone,

I'm Jean-Pierre. I've a 1993 indian red 968 cab since roughly 10 years, now.

Living North of France near Belgium......and UK by Channel Tunnel!

Shall have changed the ABS hydraulic unit last year, hard to find since no more manufactured. Hopefully I found a second-hand nicely working one.

I've now this damned airbag light lighted on, be happy to share your experience on that..............

Hello from France - 94SilverCab - 04-23-2019

Welcome,

Enjoy the site.

Jay

Hello from France - Ryan - 04-23-2019

Welcome,

You may need to find a repair shop with a Bosch Hammer device to turn your airbag light off.

Hello from France - Rap - 04-23-2019

Welcome. Indian red?

Hello from France - 94SilverCab - 04-23-2019

Quote:Welcome. Indian red?

Pretty sure that means Guards Red

Jay

Hello from France - Rap - 04-23-2019

That's what I thought but I knew an old seasoned 968 guy like you would likely chime in and clear the air.

Hello from France - pdxmike - 04-23-2019

Only the Hammer or the Durametric can turn off the airbag light. There is no alternative or work around that doesnt require an electrical engineering degree. You can pull the bulb from the gauge but obviously that isnt an advisable strategy.

I highly recommend the Durametric which is an amazingly useful diagnostic tool.

Hello from France - fr_JPi - 04-23-2019

Thanks for your welcome.

Effectively, it's guards red (color code 80K). Indian red is direct translation of german "indischrot" color.

Concerning Durametric tool, apart turning off the light, does it give any information about the source of problem?

By the way, pdxmike, I'm electronic engineer. Some times ago, I did the interface described in scantool3.zip in that post "Resetting the airbag warning light" (03/21/2007!).

Beginner's luck, first time I used it, it worked nicely. I do remember I got an error code but I think the only meaning I succeeded to get was "unknown problem" or something like that!! Anyway, I succeeded to switch off the airbag light.

Since that time, I didn't succeed to connect again?! Is there any trick I forgot time running?

Hello from France - pdxmike - 04-23-2019

Wow, no kidding. Having read that post way back, I figured it would take an EE to make it work. Guess I was right. Big Grin

To the best of my knowledge, the Durametric will NOT tell you the cause of the airbag fault on the 968 - only on the (much) newer Porsches. You may have a more complex challenge on your hands if you can't get it to reset again.

The real benefit of the Durametric is real-time monitoring of all DME functions and sensors - RPM, voltage, DME temp sensor, O2 sensor, timing, injector pulse width, throttle position, load, etc - from the driver's seat, as the engine is running. It dramatically speeds up troubleshooting of the DME and related sensors.

But I don't believe it will tell you where exactly the fault in the airbag (or alarm) system might be.

Hello from France - Kaj Hallstrom - 04-25-2019

So, are we just ignoring the airbags on our old 968's.....Do they still work?.... Not sure mine does. I have no warning lights but they are suppose to be checked in intervals. Very good tread...What to do with old airbags.

Hello from France - ds968 - 04-25-2019

[quote name="Kaj Hallstrom" post="187000" timestamp="1556171197"]So, are we just ignoring the airbags on our old 968's.....Do they still work?.... Not sure mine does. I have no warning lights but they are suppose to be checked in intervals. Very good tread...What to do with old airbags.[/quote]

Thats a very interesting question. Unfortunately the only way to find out the answer to that is not really an ideal scenario. I could be wrong but I think we have first generation air bags in our cars, which while in a severe head on collision accident will save your life, if theyre deployed in a moderate accident they can harm you more so than provide any material benefit . The explosion is incredibly powerful and you will end up with major burns as well as bruising and possibly broken bones . So I almost wish they no longer work, because the chance of a head on collision is fairly minimal. And lets hope Porsche did not use Takata air bags in our cars !!

Hello from France - pdxmike - 04-25-2019

This is a long, wonky post. I have a special interest in the history of vehicle safety systems. Apologies in advance for the pedantic nature of this reply.

I researched the early Porsche airbag system in great detail when I purchased my 968. Attached is an outstanding PDF which summarizes the design choices made by Porsche. The 968 has first-gen airbags with problems inherent to those systems - but the system is very excellently designed and, if operating properly, is as safe as when the vehicles rolled out of Zuffenhausen.

The airbags themselves have a very long service life and do not need to be replaced/deactivated unless there is another problem with the system.

There is no Porsche recommendation as far as timeframe for replacement. Other manufacturers vary in terms of their recommendations. MB requires pre-1992 airbags be replaced at 15 year intervals - but have stated that from 1992 on, Mercedes airbags have no service life limit.

Per Porsche, periodic dealership inspection (every 2 years) is recommended; however, the dealership "maintenance" involves only a check confirming that the airbag warning light functions and a visual inspection of the system. Otherwise the system is presumed to be operating as intended.

The SRS system completes an auto-diagnostic every time the car is started. The airbag light comes on and goes out in 5 seconds? That's the auto-diagnostics checking out OK. That's pretty much all that needs to be done as far as maintenance on these cars.

As noted in the attached article (which, again, contains quite excellent information) the 1st gen Porsche SRS requires complete replacement of sensors, control unit, and airbag module in case of deployment. All parts are still available new from the dealership- but are staggeringly expensive.

The 968 system is front-impact only. There are no side-impact sensors. There is a safety system in the control module which prevents accidental deployment when the car is stationary. There must be a rapid deceleration for the airbags to deploy - they are very unlikely to just go off randomly. It's actually a fairly sophisticated system, for the era. Even though they have some years on them, the Porsche engineers knew what they were doing and the airbag system is well-designed and robust.

Looking at the available data - both from the NHTSA and additional studies - the safety profile between first and second generation airbags IN A COLLISION - for "normal sized" adult drivers - is pretty much identical. The studies I looked at showed about a 1.5% absolute reduction in risk of death with second generation vs first generation airbags - a statistical wash. There has actually been some debate that second-gen airbags - introduced around 1995 and depowered mainly to reduce risk of injury/death for children - are LESS safe than first-generation airbags in a serious crash. One study showed 46% INCREASED risk of serious thoracic injury (related to the crash, not airbag itself) with second-gen airbags as compared with first-gen units.

That said, the NHTSA has been pretty clear that the risk of injury from the airbag itself is definitely higher with first-gen vs second-gen airbag systems (which our system predates). Between 1990-2003, there were 54 known driver deaths due to first-gen airbags - over 259 million vehicle years - or about one death due to a first-gen airbag for every 5,000,000 vehicle years. By comparison, between 1995-2003 there were 27 known driver deaths due to second-gen airbags (non-SLED plus SLED-certified) over 529 million vehicle years - or about one death due to a second-gen airbag for every 20,000,000 vehicle years.

So from an absolute perspective, second gen airbag systems are about four times safer for the driver in terms of harm from the airbag itself. BUT - they may not protect as well as the older first-gen airbags in an actual serious collision.

From a relative perspective, the driver is very, very unlikely to be seriously injured or killed by the 968's airbag. You'd have to own your car 5 million years, on average, to have a fatal event because of the airbag. Few of us will own our cars that long. Tongue

It's not even worth worrying about.

In terms of harm reduction - with first-gen airbags holding the wheel at 9-3 instead of 10-2 is actually quite important. As is maintaining at least 10 inches of distance between the driver and steering wheel.

The passenger airbag is more problematic in our cars, because there is no way to safely disable it and because it points directly forward out of the dash. No child under 13 should ever - EVER - be in the front seat. I would consider 5'2" to 5'4" to be the height threshold for allowing a teenager or adult to sit in the front passenger seat. And - my personal opinion - the passenger seat should always be positioned all the way back, at all times, whenever anyone is riding shotgun.

This is all just based on my internet research - I don't have any actual training or experience in this regard - so please just take it all as my opinion.

Porsche-Airbag-Systems.pdf Size: 2.73 MB Downloads: 8

Hello from France - ds968 - 04-25-2019

This is excellent, detailed info which , IMO, deserves its own thread ( pinned ) .

Hello from France - Spokayman - 04-26-2019

[quote name="ds968" post="187008" timestamp="1556223426"]This is excellent, detailed info which , IMO, deserves its own thread ( pinned ) .[/quote]

Agreed Dan. This is good info.

Mike, would you consider starting a thread about this topic specifically so that the information is easily found by anyone’s search of the topic “airbag”?

Hello from France - MCL968 - 04-26-2019

Yes, thanks for the information. I also have the dreaded airbag light and I cannot seem to reset it. Two shops have tried and their computers won't even speak to the computer. There are only a few parts to this system, so in theory it should be easy to fix, but in theory our timing belts should last 100,00 miles.

Has anyone out there ever come up with a reasonable solution for removing the proprietary locking nuts on the impact sensors? You can get them off of the airbag computer with a vise-grip and an ample amount of swearing, but the impact sensors are deep in the corners by the firewall and I can't see a way to get anything in there to remove those nuts, except the socket designed for that specific purpose.

Hello from France - pdxmike - 04-26-2019

Sorry you're still having that airbag problem.

I've never dealt with those bolts but I found a pic and they look like a major PITA.

Not sure that there's a nondestructive way to get the sensors out. One site mentions twisting the sensor itself (?) as a means of loosening the nuts enough to get them off.

Not knowing the challenges of that location - I might use a dremel with an extension and a cutoff disk to either cut the nut off, or otherwise cut a slot so that you could use the hammer and chisel method of applying counterclockwise torque...

Hello from France - Kaj Hallstrom - 04-28-2019

Great info, thanks

Hello from France - fr_JPi - 04-28-2019

Concerning the airbag sensor bolts, I found this tool https://www.paragon-products.com/Socket-p/000.721.925.90.htm(or here: https://www.samstagsales.com/Porsche.htm) that seems the only one accessing the bolts in their location.

Due to the specific "saw tooth" design, I'm not so sure about what this tool is supposed to do: removing, setting or both?

By the way, I've only found track of it in US so any information about it would be nice.

Anyway, I bought a new sensor, disconnected the battery for one day, and tested their respective resistance (after nice struggling accessing their connector! :whine: ). Old and new sensor data were same so problem should come from elsewhere.

PS: May be time to switch this discussion in a more appropriate forum topic?