Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Printable Version
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Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 12-07-2009
Ok, so it has been raining here in So Cal today, a lot, and before everyone gets started. I learned to drive in NC, then moved to CO, so I've had a fair share of driving in poor weather conditions. I figured I would try to see how the car lets go, under power in a turn...um, kind of earlier than I expected. I've owned a bunch of front wheel drive cars, a rear wheel drive and an awd car, and now the Porsche. My set up is 7" wide stock 16s all the way round, tires are in decent shape, suspension is stock and I have a LSD.
What are people's opinions...would a suspension/wheel/tire change give me a massively different experience, how does the LSD play into it (the one on the car, not the pills i took), or do I just need to learn to respect the throttle on this beast.
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - rhudeboye - 12-08-2009
Have you ever played around in a empty parking lot or taken your car on a track to get a feel for what the car drift and what brings it back in line before?
The back end comes loose a little early on mine as well but it can easily be controlled. First time shocked me as I wasnt on the gas. I just came in too hot. I feathered the brake and all went surprisingly well. In a parking lot later that year I broke the back end loose and swung it around a parking space to see if I could control it. It did just what I wanted it to. and Im on stock suspension!
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 12-08-2009
Haha, I've been so busy fixing this car, I haven't had a chance to thrash it around or do a track event, something I'm definitely planning on doing. As far as messing around with cars in general, that is something I have definitely done, but my other rear wheel drive car is a tr6, so it only has about half as much power as the 968. I suppose I'm just so used to Subaru awd I've been driving for the last 6 years.
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Scott Collins - 12-08-2009
IMO
Tires make a big difference for my 968. I alternate between 16's and 17's. The 17's make the back end much more planted and less likely to step out the way I drive. But the 16's (stock rims with Toyo Proxes 4) are lighter and the car is faster with them on off the line and in some other situations.
I have M030 struts/spring on the front and Koni adjustables on the back, without the spring helpers that were part of the M030 set-up. I have (RS Barn) gradually softened the setting all around because I felt that the full firm settings were causing unpredicable handling on bumpy streets. M030 sway bars front and back, with the rear set in the center setting, which for me, promotes a more predictable understeer trait, which is easier for me to manage driving through curves at speed. I like this also because of this tendency for the back end to step out and it seems to minimize the likelyhood of that happening.
After installing a Guards GT torque biasing diff, I felt a little bit of help here, but only when I caused one or the other wheel to spin as opposed to slide. Obviously, the LSD does nothing to change the weight bias of the overall car. I feel that the tires have much more of an influence with this aspect of the performance of the car because I feel that they help to overcome this problem. That being said, there are certain things, like braking while going through a turn, that are pretty much guaranteed to make the ends trade positions. I have done that at low spped, not hotdogging, and was very luck that no one was around because it could have been bad....
Experimentation in a safe setting is a great way to find the limits. Once you know these, you can be a bit more confident that you don't exceed them in an unsafe manner.
Does this make sense?
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 12-08-2009
Definitely...although handling upgrades are on my list, it has been rather far down until now as I've been bringing everything else back up to par (Like engine not breaking down, overheating or self destructing). I've been looking for 17s I like for a while now, and considering sway bars and coil overs as well as replacing the caster blocks. As far as comfort goes, I'm happy to have a stiffer ride over the original worn springs and shocks, and torsion bar, but I'm not looking for a racecar, in regards to low comfort level, or really high end handling. I should probably get an alignment as well, but if I'm about to possibly change the ride height, re indexing the torsion set up and replace the caster blocks, this would be a bit of a waste right now.
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Chris Vais - 12-08-2009
So is your question directed more at how the car handles in the rain or just towards its handling in general? Assuming that your question was more directed to wet weather handling, I think the controlling factors are going to be more about the tires your running, road surface conditions and speed. rather than suspension modifications.
I live in Northern California and my 968 is my daily driver, rain or shin. I run Bridgestone RE050A Pole Positions on stock 17 inch wheels. The only suspension modification has been to go to Koni adjustables. No other mods and the car does not have an LSD. I find that it is possible to have the rear end kick out on me on a wet road if I carry the same speed into a curve as I would on a dry surface. Recovery is effortless and instantaneous so I don't fret much about it. I can avoid it by carrying just a little less speed.
Hydroplaning on the freeway however is another matter altogether. I've scared the s%^t out of myself a couple of times when that car has hydroplaned on a flooded freeway surfaces where the surface has been heavily chewed up by traffic and tends to collect water. The truck lanes are notorius for this sort of thing. I will say that the new paving materials that CalTrans has been putting down on the freeways here in the north are great. The section of I 880 through Oakland is being repaved with this material and it is much safer in the rain as a result.
My other car is an Audi A6 Quattro Avant and is loves the rain.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - nissanite - 12-08-2009
I am on the tire bandwagon. Tires with alot of tread does not mean they are good tires. Autocar.uk did a test about the "cost of buying cheap tires". They tested a good performance tire against some low cost challangers. The result was the cheap tires came up to about 85% of the base in the dry. The wet was another story, with the next best at about 50%.
Older tires will loose wet grip. My suggestion is a good summer performance tire. The top manufacturer do a tremendous amount of research to make their tires work.
Remember - Formula 1 races in the rain !!!!!!!!!!!!
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 12-08-2009
yes, I have Firestone Firehawk GTA 02 tires from the PO. They don't seem especially good, but I don't have much to compare them to. They are pretty Narrow at 215. I'm holding out to find some 17s before I get new rubber.
It was easy enough for me to get the car back under control again, and I managed not to over correct, but the car was pretty sideways before I had a chance to do much about it.
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Anchorman - 12-09-2009
Ever since I put Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires on my 968, the wet handling has been nothing short of remarkable. In fact, I will always remember - fondly - a DE event at Watkins Glen during which there was a constant rain for the entire first day. Most cars stayed in the pits. I ventured out, and eventually found that I was able to get up to what I'd characterize as 80-85% of my dry speeds - and, because so many cars stayed off the track, it was almost like a private track experience. Love those tires!
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 01-19-2010
Haha, ok, so now this is just silly. Last night I was driving a curvy road to meet with my business partner, it had been raining all day, but had stopped raining about 2 hours previously. I was going around a corner that was marked at 25mph, going maybe 35, and the back end slid out. I corrected and it slid out again. I was going a constant velocity, foot on the accelerator, not pushing the car, just maintaining the speed. This car handle less well in the wet than any other car I have ever owned.
Speaking with Flash a few weeks ago, I mentioned that the wheels are the original 16s 7 inch width on both the front and the back. In the "Wheels that came on our car" post it specifies that these 16s are supposed to be 7 on the front and 8 on the rear. Can anybody verify that this is the case? If so, is this my problem? I've been hesitant to buy new tires, because I am looking to upgrade to a 17 or 18, but simply haven't found the right price, and they have plenty of tread left. I'm sure the tires are not helping, especially with 205s all the way around.
Any comments or suggestions. I don't think this is my driving ability in question, I thought it could be at first, when I was pushing the throttle a bit too much in the corners, trying to get a feel for the car, but this is just scary at this point.
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Kim - 01-19-2010
original "base" was 16x7 and 16x8. Upgrade was 7.5x17 and 9x17.
tires were 205/55x16 front and 225/50x16 back, upgrade was 225/45x17 front and 255/40x17 rear (i think this is correct for the upgrade but I am sure for the base.
Mine has base front but 16x9 rear with 245/45x16 on back.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Anchorman - 01-19-2010
Have no doubt that the problem you felt is not inherent in the car - certainly tires, maybe wheels. As I mentioned above, I've driven my car on the Watkins Glen track in rain at about 80% (or more) of my dry speed. Thus, I'd say pretty good (superb) wet handling can be achieved with the right tires and wheels. FYI, I'm on 18" wheels, 235/40 in front, 265/35 in back. The tires - Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3 are discontinued (I learned that when I had a rear high-speed blowout a couple of weeks ago) so I'm changing over to the Goodyear Eagle F1 Assymetrical.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - PorscheDude - 01-19-2010
Sorry to say, but sounds like you should replace your tires.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 01-19-2010
yeah, but on 7" wide wheels all around? the rear track is 1" smaller than it should be, the wheels are 1" narrower than they should be, seems like it would be better, but still worse than stock
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - pure&simple - 01-20-2010
I've found the 968 very sensitive to camber changes in the road. The first time I got loose unexpectedly in the rain was coasting (maintaining speed) through a left-hand turn at an intersection. Just as I crossed over the crown of the road and it went from on-camber to off-camber the rear stepped out quickly. This is relatively easy to reproduce, but doesn't seem to happen at any time other than when the road changes camber. Maybe it's just an inherent drawback in the suspension design. Sometimes I give it some gas as I come over the crest just to have a little fun. I've got a lot of suspension work done... not sure how that affects things. I am running 225/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - pure&simple - 01-20-2010
In addition to what others have said about replacing getting better tires and running wider in the rear, you might get your alignment checked. Maybe you're toed-out in the rear or something. Or, worse yet, toed-out on one side and in on another.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - 968TDG - 01-20-2010
I have actually been having a lot of fun with it, trying to understand when it happens, but it is very clear to me that I need better tires, wider wheels, probably an alignment, and I'm sure some suspension work would go a long way. I need to find a big wet empty parking lot.
I got it, a church!!
-Phil
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - flash - 01-20-2010
there is a nice big skid pad at willow
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - Anchorman - 01-20-2010
Walmart parking lots are usually pretty good.
Look honey, I'm going sideways. - flash - 01-20-2010
one of the first things i do with any new car is take it out to a parking lot and spin it - better to find out what it does there than it is on an onramp in traffic