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Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - Printable Version

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+---- Thread: Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows (/advice-needed-bilstein-escort-cup-vs-firehawk-vs-koni-yellows.html)


Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - Jim K - 07-18-2007

Also posted this in the Racing forum:



Hi all,

I have searched and read up alot on this topic, but I am soliciting additional advice and information. I have a 1992 968 which I am getting ready to build as a dual use street / DE car. I instruct with the PCA at approximately 6-8 DE's per year.



This is primarily a DE car with the intent of using it about 2 day per week on the street. This will not be a dedicated 100% track car, and I definitly don't mind a stiff ride, but I don wan't to have a degree of streetability. I am leaning more towards a track setup than a street set up if that makes sense.



I used to have a 993 that I had Pss9's on, it was my everday driver and I kept them adjusted to almost full hard and was OK with it. I live in Atlanta GA, so the roads aren't horrible.



I am currently thinking that I will retain my rear torsion bars and go with M030 sway bars. I am currently considering the following



- Bilstein Escort Cup: I have heard differing opions on the streetability of these. Some say they are acceptable, some say track only. What kind of spring rates would be good for a dual use car, and what are the thoughts of the Lindsey Racking street valving vs. track valving.



- Bilstein Firehawks: How do these compare with the Escorts?



- Koni Adjustable Yellows:



- Any other options I am missing out on? I don't want to spend more than the Escort cups so options such as Motons etc are out. Not sure about pricing on Leda's for my application.



Thanks and all input is appreciated.



Jim

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - flash - 07-18-2007

i'd call pete at rs barn but.......



stiffness is a spring thing and not a shock thing - the shocks are only there to dampen the springs - many shocks give you a false sense of stiffness, and many people crank them up to try to achieve that stiffness, but as soon as you throw it into a corner, you find out that the only thing holding the car up is the spring, and all the "stiff" shock is doing is bouncing you around - shocks should be tuned to adjust the natural frequency of the suspension, and control the spring - nothing more



as for the particular shocks, so far, i've not heard good things about the escorts



leda is gone



it seems that kw requires reindexing



i don't like the koni yellow in the rear - in fact, i don't like anything gas in the rear - it's just too jittery on bumps due to the gas preload - they are ok and simple enough, but not the perfect choice



the koni yellows have very real spring rate limits up front - 300# is about all they can handle - after that, they lose the ability to dampen bumps - i am very likely going to swap these out for the 3012



i like the HAL fluid shocks in the rear - the single adjustable ones are nice, and good for dual purpose, but have limits to spring rate - the dual adjustable ones are working GREAT on my car with 500# springs and no torsions



as for dual purpose spring rates, that is pretty subjective - without doing a lot of chassis work, i would not go beyond 300 up front and a net wheel rate of 325 or so in the rear - i would also not increase the front rate more than 25% without also increasing the rear



good luck and hope that helps

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - vnarma - 07-18-2007

[quote name='flash' post='38422' date='Jul 18 2007, 09:36 AM']i'd call pete at rs barn but.......



stiffness is a spring thing and not a shock thing - the shocks are only there to dampen the springs - many shocks give you a false sense of stiffness, and many people crank them up to try to achieve that stiffness, but as soon as you throw it into a corner, you find out that the only thing holding the car up is the spring, and all the "stiff" shock is doing is bouncing you around - shocks should be tuned to adjust the natural frequency of the suspension, and control the spring - nothing more



as for the particular shocks, so far, i've not heard good things about the escorts



leda is gone



it seems that kw requires reindexing



i don't like the koni yellow in the rear - in fact, i don't like anything gas in the rear - it's just too jittery on bumps due to the gas preload - they are ok and simple enough, but not the perfect choice



the koni yellows have very real spring rate limits up front - 300# is about all they can handle - after that, they lose the ability to dampen bumps - i am very likely going to swap these out for the 3012



i like the HAL fluid shocks in the rear - the single adjustable ones are nice, and good for dual purpose, but have limits to spring rate - the dual adjustable ones are working GREAT on my car with 500# springs and no torsions



as for dual purpose spring rates, that is pretty subjective - without doing a lot of chassis work, i would not go beyond 300 up front and a net wheel rate of 325 or so in the rear - i would also not increase the front rate more than 25% without also increasing the rear



good luck and hope that helps[/quote]



I went down the same debate about a year back. I ended up with KW's and I'm very happy.



All "helper" springs over ~80lb require reindexing in the back to maintain the proper height unforturnately. The KW come standard with Rear spring of 285lb.



So far it has been very neutral at the track, and excellent on the road. I've tried the original M030 setup, the update Escort Cup on other cars. They were likely great in there day, but technology has moved ahead in the last decade. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Please no flames, just a personal opinion.

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - flash - 07-18-2007

no problem here - i'm not knocking the kw at all - the reindexing thing was a surprise when i heard you had to do that, and will prevent a lot of people from going there, but once they are in, they seem to work pretty darned well - what you say about the M030 and Escort stuff is very much in line with everything i have heard and felt too

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - Jim K - 07-18-2007

Flash, thanks for all the input. I am aware of the compromises on the Escort cup. Its a shame because I had Pss9's on my 993 and was very happy with them (street and track). Can you give me some more info on the Hal shocks?







Vaino, I have heard nothing but good things about the KW setups, but they are most likely going to be out of my price range. What ball park did your set up run, and where did you get them?



Thanks.



Jim

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - flash - 07-18-2007

the HAL shocks have been around for a long time - as a hydraulic and not gas shock, they provide a smoother damping, with less harshness and no preload



i ran the single adjustable ones on my car for about 3 years, and just recently upgraded to the dual adjustable ones - i found that the springs i had just increased to were just a bit too stiff for the valving of the single adjustables to handle - i was always stuck making a compromise between bump and compression - now i have the best of both worlds



the only issue is tracking down the correct size bushings - HALs have 1/2' and to use the OEM bolt, you need 12mm up top and 14mm below - i did it, but it wasn't easy - if there was a demand, i could kncok them out, but thusfar, it has not been an interest, as most people are still buying into the marketing of the other stuff out there



i think ground control has come up with something too

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - mikeo - 07-18-2007

Leda is not gone, they are back in business. Call Karl at Racers Edge 865-675-8285. He will give you good advice for your dual use. I say this because that is what I wanted and the set up we agreed on is perfect!

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - Tom in Austin - 07-19-2007

Good discussion! I run Koni yellows, I do find the rear pretty jittery and harsh ... is there an uncomplicated alternative? Maybe someone would like to go to the Konis and we could do a trade?

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - flash - 07-19-2007

yes, there is an uncomplicated alternative, depending on spring rate



what springs are you going to run?

Advice needed: Bilstein Escort Cup vs. Firehawk vs. Koni Yellows - Tom in Austin - 07-30-2007

Stock springs and eventually, an M030 rear bar.