Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Printable Version
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Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - DayDreamer - 05-07-2010
I have followed this thread since the inception with the hope of SCing my car, but yesterday I finaly admitted to myself out loud while driving home that I will not get the SC. Why Not?
92 Model - Strike 1
High Milage - Strike 2
Not in the USA - Strike 3 (YOUR'RRRRRRE OUTTTTT!)
No Cat - Strike 4 (kick him in the head)
No O2 Sensor - Strike 5 (Kick him again while he is down.. just incase)
Its was a sad moment, however, I will still follow this thread and live vicariously through those that do... so please make me a happy Virtual SC 968 driver [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Fox944 - 05-07-2010
Daydreamer, why does high mileage scare you? There are plenty of High Mileage cars out there with very strong motors.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Scott Collins - 05-07-2010
DayDreamer,
In one of the previous posts, Flash says that "there is a chance" that it will be ok for '92 con rods. All is not lost!
Also, there are lot's of homes for sale in New Jersey, at bargain prices, close to RS Barn.
Cheers!
-Scott
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-07-2010
there is indeed a chance it will be ok on 92 rods - still waiting for confirmation on that
there is a good chance it will be ok ROW
there is slim to no chance it will work without a cat
there is absolutely NO chance it will work at all without an O2 sensor - i'm not sure how your engine runs normally aspirated without one
as for high mileage, it's not about how strong the motor runs - it's about how new the head gasket is, and how fresh the valve guides are - the increased pressures from the sc will push past both of those - an old head gasket will blow apart - worn valve guides will result in high oil consumption and valve cover pressures - if you have a lot of miles on it, or it has never had the head off, basically you need to assume you WILL be doing the head, whether it is right away, or shortly after you put the kit on the car - save yourself the grief - park the money now
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Fox944 - 05-07-2010
Exactly why high mileage does not scare me. With proper maintenance, mileage means little to me.
Not to go off topic, but here is a short story. I owned a 1997 Volvo 850R for a short period of time. I bought the car with 91K miles from the original owner, all service records, all maintenance up to date. My friend bought a 1997 850R 1 week later. The car he picked up only had 16K miles on the OD. Also from the original owner, but hardly driven. He paid 5grand more for his car (initial purchase price) and then had to invest an additional 4 grand into it the first month of ownership. brake calipers siezed 2 days after he purchased it, many of the hoses and lines had to be replaced because of dry rot, the ABS/Traction Control Module went bad, etc. His cost of ownership was nearly double of what i paid for the same car used for the same thing (daily driver).
Anytime i modify any car for power i swap the head gasket. I have a triple thick stainless steel Powerhaus head gasket on my 968 now. And even if the car was a year old, i would swap the gasket if installing a Super Charger. beafing up certain parts when modifying has always been a kind of a must for me.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-07-2010
yup
unfortunately most people don't think of a head gasket change or a valve job as "proper maintenance" when their car seems to "run fine" as is
i'm equally concerned about low mileage cars on original parts - if i were to buy one now, i would have to go through exactly the same process i did with the white car (all new hoses, belts fluids, etc), and also have to change every bushing on the car - extremely low mileage cars (under 25k) are probably worth less than a car that has been well maintained but has 50k on it
but i digress - i'm trying to find a place to do the 0-60 runs today - then i can put up all the data and info on the kit
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Cloud9...68 - 05-07-2010
Since the topic of head gasket replacement has popped up, I figure this is a good time to ask a question that occurred to me a few days ago. Does the installation of a supercharger take some of the pressure off getting the cam timing correct to a fraction of a nano-degree? I know it swamps out the effect of things like porting, so I'm wondering if a head R & R with the intention of a supercharger install could fall within the capability of the average do-it-yourselfer who doesn't have anywhere near RS Barn-level experience with the apparently very complicated cam timing procedure. Thanks.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-07-2010
hadn't thought about that, but i suppose the short answer is yes, although it does need to be close - too far off and the boost could actually make things worse - the cam timing still needs to be done at least per the workshop manual procedure
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Cloud9...68 - 05-08-2010
Thanks for the quick reply. In very layman's terms (the only way I can speak on this subject), it just seems to me that the effect of air being forced into the engine at greater-than-atmospheric pressure would tend to overwhelm things like the shape of the ports and the timing of the cams - things that are critical to a normally aspirated engine. Of course, I'm not suggesting that one can be "sloppy" with the timing of the cams, just that it might be something that someone may be able toiget away with on their own, following the directions in the manual as best he can, where he may otherwise opt to have someone with a great deal of experience take on the task. OK, maybe another millimeter or two nudge in the direction of doing this sooner rather than later...
Also, I suspect the '92 rods will be OK to use...
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-08-2010
while the net effects would be less significant in power terms, the net effects in damage could be magnified, as the cams might not be having things coming and going when they should, and under pressure, could cause issues - i haven't really thought that one out enough to know just how much variance does what in that scenario
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Cloud9...68 - 05-08-2010
My question was motivated by the scenario of a DIY vs. a professionally done head R & R. I'm assuming a careful do-it-yourselfer, meticulously following the manual, can get the cam timing reasonably close, but not quite as perfect as Pete or Max from RS Barn. This would result in the difference of a few horsepower in a normally-aspirated engine. But in a supercharged engine, woud the fact that air is being force-fed into the intake swamp out the difference? Of course, I see your point that a botched job, followed by a supercharger installation, may well be an invitation for major problems, but again, I'm assuming the do-it-yourselfer, with much guidance from people on this board who have done the job before, could get the timing pretty close. But then there's the matter of the cost of the various tools needed for the job, which may tip the scales back in favor of taking it to somebody...
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-08-2010
cautiously done, and following the steps carefully, it should be fine - it still requires the dial indicators and such to do the job, as is specified in the manual, but yes, it could certainly be done by a decent shadetree mechanic
i've timed my own cams
we haven't yet even thought about trying to figure out what cam timing changes might result in what power changes in forced induction - another project for another time
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - JWahlsten - 05-08-2010
Timing the cams while timing consuming isn't that bad. Been there done it with a bit of advice from a DIY and Max. Kind of fun actually.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - blue968 - 05-09-2010
Hi guys,
I'm with Cloud on this 1, I want to do the job and probably will but the more I read about this it sounds overwhelming. Having R&R my cams already with no dials and my car runs fine without skipping a beat tends to give me the confidence I need to go ahead and tackle the job.
Anyway I have been racking my brain trying to figure out how the Vario-cam actually works?
The way I see it is the left cam (Intake I think) is connected to the crank by the belt/gear so there is no way for that cam to move AT ALL. The right cam (exhaust I think) is driven by the chain, well if the chain is tight already how can it change the degree of the cam? My thought is that the lower pad is spring loaded while the top pad is controlled by oil pressure, when the oil pressure increase the pad rises and compressing the lower pad to allow movement in the chain hence rotating the right (Exhaust) cam slightly.
Is my theory correct?
Does anybody know where to get the flange to hook up to the oil inlet to pressurize the vario cam? I called Sunset already and they don't have it.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-09-2010
rather than derail the thread, i'll find and post int he library the "how the variocam works" article
also, somebody should start a new thread it "tool time" to list the tools needed to do the job (i'm not sure there isn't already a DIY but it probably does not show sources)
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Cloud9...68 - 05-09-2010
"also, somebody should start a new thread it "tool time" to list the tools needed to do the job (i'm not sure there isn't already a DIY but it probably does not show sources)"
Yes, that would be very helpful. If would be great if the people (and it appears that there are several) who have recently done a head R & R combine forces and put together a DIY, with lots of good pictures, tht augments the procedure described in the manual. It sounds like the manual does a decent job describing the procedure already, so the DIY may not have to be completely all-encompassing. It should primarily emphasize the parts of the job that aren't covered as well as they should be in the manual, again with plenty of good pictures (if they're available) covering these gaps. Given the number of people who are faced with a head rebuild (whether they're planning to add the supercharger or not), this would be an extremely valuable resource.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-10-2010
just so everybody is up to speed, the plan is to finish a couple of part throttle tuning tweaks tuesday, just to see if i can get more out of it, and then finalize the chip - a few last parts are due to arrive any time now, and then everything goes in the box and the units get shipped - we have already completely sold through the first batch of 10, and are taking orders on the second batch now - i expect that batch to go fairly quickly, especially once the charts and such are out, and a couple of people get this installed, but the third batch will likely take a LONG time to accumulate enough orders to justify the run, so if you don't get in on the second batch, you could be waiting a long time
i will be publishing the press release tuesday night if i get back early enough, or wednesday morning if not - it is 11 pages long, and answers every question i could think of that anybody might ask - it has graphs, charts, and performance figures
you can be sure that this kit addresses many of the design shortcomings of the other kits out there, and that we won't be working things out at the expense of others by releasing it prematurely - this thing will have been put through the paces already - i have been continually refining things along the way each and every time i come up with a better idea or a solution to a problem somebody else has had with their kit - we have incorporated a number of innovative design ideas that nobody else does that resolve the serious shortcomings of other designs - we spent more time and money on the development, and the margin on the kit is far less, which means we can provide better parts and design for your dollar than anybody else
there is one other thing that makes this kit stand out above all others - i own one myself on my own car - no other developer of a kit for this car can say that - i designed it with my own use in mind - i developed it on my own car, with all the risks that implies - i did it on my own dime - i had my last toy for 25 years - i intend to have this one that long too - i am just happy to pass along the benefits of my work - this also means that if i come up with something better about the kit, i will pass that along too
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - DayDreamer - 05-10-2010
Just to put my thoughts up there.....
92 Model
'Possible' Con Rod issue. My PO redid the bottom after the oil pickup tube failure. No mention of new conrods in the records
High Milage
I do burn a little oil. I would prefer to redo the head and possibly the rings.... actually, I might end up doing the whole engine. If this SC becomes a reality for the ROW cars, I want to do it right and get the full effect.
Not in the USA
This might not be a biggy given time as Flash cannot sit still if there is work left undone. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
I have thought about shipping the car to the Barn [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] Better get a lotto ticket.
As for moving to NJ [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]... The way the world is going, We're pretty cosy down here.. but thanks for the offer Scot [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
Cat
My Cat was cut out a long time ago as we we never had unleaded until about 1999/2000, and we do not have emission controls.
No O2 Sensor
I stand corrected, I assumed it was used in conjunction with a cat. I will check with my 'Porsche Guy'
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-10-2010
we should know more about the rods this week
if they work, and you have the right ECU, then all you will need is to weld the factory cat back in there (assuming you are now on unleaded gas) - but, it won't run at all safely without the factory cat
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 05-12-2010
putting stuff together now - sorry for the delay
but i see the gruesome twosome are still trying to accuse me of copying somebody else's design, even though the only thing i share in common with it is the relief valve (the same one as on the 951) - just shows how little those guys know about these things
last night was productive in as much as it showed me some things in the part throttle maps as well as the timing maps that proved that the ONLY way to put this system together safely is with remapping the chip - failure to do that will result in part throttle lean conditions, as well as timing advance issues, both of which no rising rate regulator can correct - the factory maps are NOT safe in boosted condition
that's probably why no other system to date actually runs right - you have to do the tuning, and it's not just WOT