Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Printable Version
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Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-05-2010
alrighty then - we've got it all worked out - here's the deal:
Things have taken longer than anticipated, but the kit is coming out exactly as we had hoped. So as to make the delivery dates in time for Hershey, we must do the production run of the first batch now. Where we wanted to finish the testing and tuning first, this now needs to occur simultaneously with the testing and tuning.
We are making these to order, and so to accurately determine how many we need to make in the first batch, we are now prepared to announce the introductory kit at the as promised price of $3995. This price is only good for the first 20 units or until Saturday April 24th, whichever comes first. The price WILL go up on April 25th.
To get this introductory price, and to make the schedule, we need to get a 50% deposit now. So as to guarantee shipping schedules, ordering will close at 5pm Eastern on Wednesday March 31st.
This deposit will be FULLY REFUNDABLE if the kit does not meet the minimum goals and specifications which we have already stated. While it is hard to nail down specific numbers, and we think we are going to do better, until we see a chart, at least we can establish minimum specs which are:
20% overall power increase
Significant torque increase across the midrange (2k-5k)
Fully tuned
Complete kit
Retains OEM fans
Accessible Air Cleaner
Airbox
Even if we do meet those specifications, and you still need to back out, It may also be refundable, if a replacement buyer is located.
Contact Pete at RS Barn to make payment
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-06-2010
picked up the final version of the mounting plate today
re-assembling everything tomorrow and sunday, and finishing the instructions at the same time
firing up as soon as i'm done bolting together
initial tuning currently set for monday
dyno set for wednesday night
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - ira968 - 03-06-2010
In the first post the power increase was estimated at 310 flywheel, 275 wheels. This post states a 20% increase that would be approx. 288 flywheel, approx. 255 at the wheels. Is this correct? Will your car be totally stock when you do the dyno? What octane fuel will be used?
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-06-2010
this is exactly why we did NOT want to get into specific numbers - they mean nothing - that's just advertising hooey - it's the area under the curve that is the focus of this kit - we do not care whatsoever about peak power numbers, and frankly are only concerned with what happens between 2k and 5k - this is NOT a big number high rev application - we are actually trying to LOWER the peak power point in the rev range
that being said, we still expect the peak to be where we have always thought
i put up the 20% figure to be EXTREMELY conservative about projections, for the sole purpose of the deposit refund issue - lol - pete made me do that - i still think we are going to end up where i originally said i did
don't go doing math yet - not sure how you would get from 288 to 255 anyway - the drivetrain loss on a manual trans 968 is about 15% (higher on a tip) - that would make the 288 (just as an arbitrary number) 245 at the wheels
my car will be totally stock on the dyno, with the exception of the flywheel - we will be doing rear wheel measurements though, so that is a non-issue
91 octane fuel - it will be tuned for that - higher octane fuel will do nothing
the other thing to remember is that i have no way of doing "before" numbers in this time frame, so while what i get on this dyno will be a close approximation of what we will see, i still want to do a before and after on another car to show the true increase
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-06-2010
just to be clear, we aren't trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes, nor do we have any reason to believe that we won't see what we always thought and said - we just had to be careful about what we put out there before we see charts
we have had a lot of people contact us to say that they want the kit - that's great - now we need to see deposits before we pull the trigger on production - how many we make in the first batch will be determined by how many people get us deposits in time
it's crazy timing, and we need a bit of faith here, but there is no risk
basically i need to green light production on friday - however many people have made deposits by then will be assured they get one in the first batch - after that, they might not - i am only running 10 front plates in the first run - the machine shop could get busy and not be able to do more before i would have to ship the first batch - how long until the second batch is unknown, and based on how long it took people to step up, it could be a very long time
but, the deposits are fully refundable in the event we are way off of what we think
does that all make more sense?
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-06-2010
lol - i've been giving this one a lot of thought, and have been trying to figure out how to explain this so everyone can get into a comfort zone with the numbers - i knew when it came down to people parting with their hard earned cash that we would have these conversations - no worries
i realize everyone thinks in terms of what they know, which is peak numbers - that's fine - let's see if we can put it in terms that make sense
if another kit makes 290 horsepower, with no cooling whatsoever, no heat barriers, no provision for reducing the charge temperature at all, and has absolutely NO tuning done to it, and we are using a unit that has its own self contained dry sump oil cooing system, and heat barriers everywhere, all to reduce charge temperatures, and our kit is fully tuned, logic would dictate that we would have AT LEAST that much power - you can take it from there
does that help? but we'll have charts soon enough so everybody can really see what we have done
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Glau - 03-06-2010
Hey Flash,
Great project here, once again your attention to detail is impressive.
I read earlier in the thread that you are going for a factory-like feel for this application, so I was surprised to read you are tuning to 91 aki instead or 93 aki like the engined was designed for... Is this just because 93 aki is not easily found in California? Here in Missouri most places carry 93 aki not 91. Just seems like tuning for 93 would be the way to go and let the "Electronic Octane knock control" adapt for the 91 -- if a factory like application is really the end goal?
I'm sure you have great reasons for going the 91 aki route, just surprised by this I guess considering you have obsessed about every detail of your car down to the pound. Not like you to give up a few free ponies.
Glau
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-07-2010
the reason for tuning to 91 is two fold:
1. here in california that is the best you can do (without paying an arm and a leg) CARB certification and 50 state legality has always been a design consideration
2. not too long from now, 91 is all there will be nationwide - already many states have dropped to 92, and there are areas of other states that are at 90
the factory-like design parameters were intended to be "the way the factory would design it" which is specifically tailored to the intended market, not "the most they could get out of it" - they designed it at the time to 93 because that was what was out there - now all american destined cars are designed to 91 - i am updating the design parameters to today's market
besides, there really isn't that much more to be had from the 2 points in octane (maximum 2% which at 300hp would be 6hp)
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - ira968 - 03-07-2010
Even at just five pounds boost you may find it very difficult to avoid detonation, particularly in the high rpm range. To avoid this you can either run a very rich mixture or increase octane. I am surprised you would not tune for 93 (or higher) as this is what most of us can buy and those that can't can easily add tutelene or other additives to boost octane a couple points (Sunoco 100 is available in many locations). For the few people that will add the kit why not optimize the performance? I will be interested to see the air fuel ratios from your final tune and the observance of any detonation at 91 octane.
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-07-2010
this is why we don't like to discuss numbers - the immediate tendency is for armchair quarterbacks to second guess what we are doing and try to insert what they read on a tuner website or in a magazine - it is also the tendency to think about the big numbers people boast of, without also realizing that those numbers are not streetable
i think maybe the goals set forth at the beginning have been missed - we see a few people who hope for numbers bigger than we are after, or plan to try to tweak it later - that won't happen, at least not without voiding the warranty, a lot more very expensive tuning, and at extreme risk of engine damage - lol - this kit will be locked down and unchangeable to protect people from themselves - if the advertised numbers are not enough, don't buy it
5 lbs will not be a detonation problem - those who have that problem just don't know what they are doing
tuning to higher octane is irresponsible - it won't be available forever, and is already disappearing - requiring somebody to find 100 is just plain silly - i've been doing that for years, and it sucks - car manufacturers now tune to 91 for very real reasons
it must eventually pass CARB - that is a design parameter - we will not be changing that, no matter how much anyone thinks we should
we are not trying to optimize or maximize anything - trying to get every last pony is also not what we intend - a 6hp gain from the octane increase is not significant anyway - that is NOT the goal - the goal was to add midrange torque - we really don't care much about hp - porsche could have gotten 300 hp out of the NA engine, but it would not have been truly drivable - for the same reasons, we are not seeking to go to that kind of tuning stratosphere either with our kit
the design idea is to produce a daily driver reliable street version - we are not after big numbers, and frankly would deliberately limit the kit even if we could get them - we can guarantee that this kit will NOT make more than 320hp, even if it could - we have always targeted the magic 10lb/hp number - that's all we want - if we get more, great, but we will still limit it to what we think is safe
if you want more power, get a turbo - this kit is not for you
we will be publishing the A/F chart when we get it - that is frankly our largest focus
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Glau - 03-07-2010
Flash,
Not second guessing or trying to get you to change your mind just curious about what you're thinking here -- so thanks for being so open about what your doing. I reread the thread and now have a better perspective of where you are coming from. Your goals for the 968 do seem to have changed over the years. I also remember reading you have backed off on your suspension to make it more street compatible. I appreciate your end goal of making this the best Californian street car it can be.
I am sure everyone who buys this kit will be very happy with it like everyone has been with all of the design 1 projects.
Cheers,
Glau
ps. 93 and 91 are at the same price point here in MO (if you can find 91).
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-07-2010
no worries - it's sometimes very hard to explain the thoughts and goals, and reasons behind them
i realize full well that it seems to many that there is a difference between california cars and the rest of the country - but there is no difference - while it is true that the 968 was tuned for 93 fuel, cars imported to the US for the last few years have all been tuned for 91
93 is going away little by little - i am just thinking forward, and planning for a kit that is universally applicable, not a one-off
the other thing to remember is that we have to consider the varying conditions of engines - while we could develop something that would work on my car on 93, and make more power, it wouldn't work on an 80k mile car
we must deliberately set our sights on the average car, and develop the kit accordingly - anybody can put together something that works on one car - we are doing something that will work on all of them, safely and reliably, and complete - that has never been done
so, yes, this is a more civilized and practical kit than perhaps what could be done - that is the intent
now, the race car i want to build will be a different story..................
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - RS Barn - 03-07-2010
BTW,
I asked Bob to post a very low expecatation for deposits. I fully expect HP numbers we projected, but what is really important is
overall gain, especially in low rpm to 5.5K or so.
I've tested 968's with very bad valve train and they made within 2hp of an excellent car at 6K. But at 4k, they were down 20 ft/lbs of torque.
I only believe My results of gains over stock, not what others think/post.
I know HP/TQ at all RPM with many options and we have our goals based on that. I have 15 variations of chips based on compression, exhaust, cams, and a few other mods
All will be fine. We just need to see who is really committed Now vs. in the Future
Pete
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-07-2010
exhaust has now been swapped back to stock - what a pain in the butt! i hate porsche engineers
i'll be buttoning up the kit tomorrow and then firing it up in the afternoon to make sure everything does what it should, bleed the cooling system, waiting for the racket of the lifters to quiet down, yada yada
then initial tuning on tuesday morning
wednesday i load it up into the trailer and it's off to the dyno
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - RS Barn - 03-07-2010
Bob,
6 chips from RS Barn ?
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-08-2010
lol - yup - 8 actually - plenty to work from and see where we are
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-09-2010
writing the instructions as i go really slows me down!
on top of that i found out friday evening that the sheet metal shop blew it on a part i thought was so simple i didn't need to check it - i spent this morning getting a new one made - done and installed now
but, that put me quite a bit behind where i wanted to be today
still, i am almost ready to turn the key - only a few small things left:
install boost guage (very simple, since i already have a vacuum gauge there and it's a simple swap)
connect MAF extension cable
connect blow off valve vacuum line
fill radiator
fill supercharger
install starter
connect battery
fab temporary airbox (awaiting the real deal)
that's about it - jeffski is coming over tomorrow morning and we are set to fire it up, bleed it all, and start the tuning
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-09-2010
got everything buttoned up - after going around the car 6 or 7 times to make sure we got everything, we fired it up
it took a couple of minutes to clear out the fuel i accidentally dumped into the #4 cylinder because i forgot to tighten the fuel lines (i thought i was going to remove the AFPR, so i left them loose)
after it cleared that out and settled down, i adjusted the idle back down to the 850 of stock, and it purred like a kitten - very snappy throttle response too - sounds like a bigger engine - no abnormal noises - blower is quiet
tomorrow we do mapping and stuff and get the boost working
i pushed the dyno appointment to thursday
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - Ryan - 03-10-2010
Are you going to drive the car or trailer it to the tuner??
Get Ready - Get Set - BLOW!!!! - flash - 03-10-2010
probably trailer - it all depends on how close i get this morning to a good map