Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?!

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Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-25-2014

maybe 2 or 3 lbs on the cruise.

you didn't lose as much as you think you did on the seats. the 4 way power seats are 54lb (24.5kg) each. club sport seats are 30lbs (13.6kg). that would make a total loss of 21.8kg.

if you go to a pin design, and ditch the hinges and latches, you can lose 30lbs or so on the hood. a lot less if you keep the hinges and latches. the OEM hood only weighs 39lbs.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - parptarf - 06-25-2014

I had 8-way power seats with heating though. And the CS seats are supposed to be 7kg without the rails, the same as the Pole Positions. The rails and mountings weigh around 3kg, if I recall correctly. Think I actually measured them. Too bad I sold my original seats or I would have measured them again.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-25-2014

8 way seats are 3.5lbs heavier each than the 4 way seats. this is complete. i had one of each in my car.

the CS seats are 30lbs each complete. i never weighed them without the rails, as that was pointless.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - parptarf - 06-25-2014

I might take one of them out to weigh it. I fairly certain the last owner measured around 10kg per seat with the reals and mountings.

You sure the 8 way with heating isn't more? Doesn't the additional motor and heating "grill" weigh more than that? I never weighed them so I'm only asking.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-25-2014

the heat may be another 1/2lb. heaters don't weigh much. it's just a web grid, a little wire, and a switch.

i'm sure about the 8 way though. 58lbs even.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - ds968 - 06-25-2014

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1403701428' post='158972']

I've taken a little over 200 lb out of mine, and I have to say, it feels like a rocket coming out of the turns on the track compared to before. Take as much weight out of it as you can, THEN add a super charger, lol. [/quote]

imagine how it feels coming out of the turns with 300 ft/lbs of torque and delivered at a pretty low rpm range as well ! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/3gears.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

with the removal of the spare tire and the oe mufflers set up, + a few other minor weight savings without any noteworthy compromises these coupes SC'd are at that 10:1 weight-power ratio which puts the car in a very respectable league. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/clap.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - Cloud9...68 - 06-25-2014

No doubt. The reason I haven't added a super charger to mine is that my build was done with an eye toward racing it competitively someday, and having an SC would put me in a very rarefied class, I'm sure. Although, who knows, the 968 may be able to hold its own against practically anything, given the success so many drivers have had with them.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - ds968 - 06-25-2014

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1403740350' post='159034']

Although, who knows, the 968 may be able to hold its own against practically anything, given the success so many drivers have had with them.

[/quote]

Let's not test that theory against a McLaren P1 ( or something else of that sort..) one might encounter on the track <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - MWG968@optimum.net - 06-26-2014

[quote name='parptarf' timestamp='1403722928' post='159002']

This inspired me a little. How much does the cruise control weigh and how do I take it off? I Have used it once just to see if it works when I got the car back in January.

I lost about 36kg from changing the stock power seats to CS seats. And lost 10,6kg by taking out the rear seat backs. I'm thinking about getting a CF hood just to get a slight rear weight bias. I'm exactly in the same boat as you, MWG. I'm 20 so no need for a really comfortable car. Although I'm keeping a decent sound system and the AC. The AC needs a fill up right now and I REALLY miss having cold blowing air in the car.

[/quote]

Parptarf,

We are very similar basically Im willing to drive around with no dashboard so long as I have A/C and a good stereo for me tunes. I autocross my dads 924S sometimes and that has no A/C. Sitting in the summer sun in a black parking lot queuing up waiting for the next run is pretty close to hell without any A/C also its already undignified to get out of a low car with bucket seats coming out smelling like an ogre with swamp butt and sweaty back is a big no no for me.

-MWG

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - MWG968@optimum.net - 06-26-2014

DS 968,

The 10:1 Ratio is really perfect for a well balanced road car in my opinion. My Dads 987.1 Cayman S has just about that ratio and its just perfect all you can need and then some. I mean I wouldnt say no to a Gt3 4.0 either but I know that with my self control I would be sleeping very often in the local Police Station. 10:1 is that perfect medium for me where your in a "respectable league" and the car performs like it but you can still rev it out without getting into triple digits too quickly.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - MWG968@optimum.net - 06-26-2014

Dear Flash,G96, and Cloud,

You guys seem to be the weight loss experts could you please tell me what you think of this revised list and answer a few questions I have?

1. Lightweight lithium Battery/ -30

2. Spare removal/ tool removal- 40

3. Rear seat delete- 25

4. Recaro Pole Position seats- 45

5. Lexan Rear Hatch/ rear windows -30

6. RS Barn full lightweight exhaust/ headers- 30

7. Lightweight single mass flywheel/clutch- 12

8. Lightweight brakes -10

9. Electric window delete/ roll up windows- -6

10. Electric mirror removal- 6

11. Sunvisors, plastics, floor mats, rear wiper, windshield wiper fluids,owners manua, engine trim etc.- 20

12. Fog light delete/ brake cooling vents- 6

13. Sun roof delete/weld- 20

14. Lightweight wheels/ tires- 10

15. Suede momo steering wheel/airbags removal- 10

16. Remove charcoal can- 3

17. Appbiz RS door skins with cloth pulls- 15

18. Power Steering delete- 12

19. lightweight alternator- 4

20. cruise control -3

21. fixed headlight conversion- 35

22. Bumper bars-25

Revised total- 395 pounds removed -50 pounds for being optimistic

Total weight savings estimate 350lbs.

Does removing the bumper bars take away structural rigidity? Does it make it unsafe to drive or unsafe in an accident. (I realize risk is all relative but I just mean if a prius taps my back bumper will I explode?)
Anything I missed that you can think of I know different body panels could save more but I’m not sure with fitment how that would all turn out.
I seem to be taking disproportionately more weight from the rear is there any way to offset this besides moving the battery to the back? Or do you disagree and think this would still retain the balance of the car?

Thanks a lot for all your input!

Best, MWG

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-26-2014

good luck on the brakes. for years i've been looking for floating rotors that don't require heavier calipers.

sun roof delete will probably only be about 8

you can't run without the charcoal can

the door panels only weigh about 5lbs each, so i don't see how you are going to lose that much, other than a full stereo delete

power steering delete will only save 4 or 5

fixed headlight conversion only saves about 20 total, and cannot be legally driven on the street anywhere in the US

remember that if you change seats, you'll have to change belts. that means having to add at least a harness bar and harnesses. that will cost some weight.

anything you do in the way of bracing, which would be silly not to add if you are going this route, will add weight.

so, while i still don't think you'll get that much, the total becomes 343 or so. that would make the car 2743 if you actually started at 3086, which i have yet to see. that weight is for a car with no options. in reality you'll probably end up right around 2825-2850

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - MWG968@optimum.net - 06-26-2014

Flash

Thanks for the reply and for throwing a wrench into my plans. Haha really though that info is invaluable to me and probably anyone else whose looking to make a superleggera 968! One question as far as the roof is concerned I often took out the moonroof for autoX on my old 968 and that seemed to be at least 20-25lbs (in fact it feels like 60 pounds when trying to remove it alone) and then the motor and stuff seemed to be more. I have seen people cut the top off a 924/944 parts cars and then they graft that on the new car. Is this not a viable option that would remove the moonroof and motor? (25-30 lbs) Perhaps I didnt understand the project can you fill me in on that?

best, MWG

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-26-2014

lol - sorry - been there done that though

the sunroof feels like a lot more than it is, because you are reaching way out over the car. the same with the hood. it's all a leverage thing.

surprisingly, the sheet metal is not that much lighter than the sunroof. there is some savings to be had, and it may stiffen the car, but it's not as much of a gain as you might think, and it's a danged expensive way to go, as you have to break the galvanizing to weld it in, and once you do that, you are subject to rust in one of the worst places. not a big deal on a race car, but on a street car it's a problem

this really all goes to the intended use. if this car is to be driven on the street, you will not be happy with a number of the things on your list.

the lexan will suck. you will have to replace it every couple of years at best.

the lithium battery will be a problem if you are in a cold climate, plan to run a stereo, lights, or anything else that might drain juice when not running.

if you don't plan to street the car, rip out the interior. between the panels, matting and carpet, you'll save about 80lbs. it will be loud in there, but who cares if not on the street.

there is a real limit to what you can do in weight savings, and you will never quite get to the magic 10:1 number no matter what you do. yes, the car will be faster, but it still won't feel like enough, because it will still lack torque. that's why many of us have gone the other route, and just added more power via the supercharger. we get the ratio, and we get gobs more low end.

really take a long look at how you want to use the car, and what you can really live without. you may find that some things are not worth deleting, as it may make the car less pleasurable to drive. these cars are GTs. stripping them down loses a lot of what this car is about.

good luck though.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - Cloud9...68 - 06-27-2014

I don't think a lexan rear hatch/side windows will save anywhere near 30 lb - more like 5-10, unless you figure out a way to lighten the hatch itself.

As I said earlier, lightweight wheels for this car are pretty much unobtanium. Quality lightweight wheels like Enkei RFP1's, Volk Racing TE37's, Forgeline Monoblocks, etc., aren't available in 17" in Porsche's bolt pattern, and those that are available in 18" are just not that light, and tire weights also go up when you go from 17" to 18". The wheel selection for the 968 pretty much sucks if you're trying to find something really light weight.

Removing both bumper bars actually saves about 35 lb (I weighed mine), and I definitely didn't notice any additional chassis flex, but then I have a weld-in roll bar/chassis brace. For a street car, removing the rear bar is a gamble, because rear-end collisions are so common. And you lose your tow hook mounting point when you remove the front bar - I had to fabricate a custom tow hook, which was actually a fairly difficult project.

I sold my headlights, motors, mounting brackets, etc. (in other words, everything that comes with the stock headlights), after converting mine to fixed and I weighed the box, and it was 38 lb, so I would guess you actually save 30 - 35 lb doing this conversion. The fixed lights weigh next to nothing. And I passed inspection with my fixed headlights, so I don't understand the "not legal anywhere in the US" comment. It never even occurred to me that this would be an issue, and the guys doing the inspection never brought them up. Maybe the 968 is so rare that they didn't realize the car didn't come with fixed headlights. Or I just got lucky. It comes up for inspection again next month - I'll report back if I have any problems.

I don't know if a lightweight alternator is practical in a street car. I believe the stock alternator puts out 115 amps, and the small Bosch one sold by Lindsey Racing only puts out 50. When you think of all the things that run off the alternator (engine fans, headlights, stereo, blower, fuel pump, brake lights, turn signals), I'm not sure that would leave you with enough to charge the battery. Also, the alternator sold by Lindsey is used with their AC delete package - not sure it would fit in place of the stock alternator.

I have my sunroof off - I'll weigh it again when I get home. I weighed it once before and seem to remember it being close to Flash's estimate, and being surprised it isn't as heavy as it seems when wrestling it off the car.

Taking weight out of a car - any car, not just the 968 - is just a challenging and potentially expensive undertaking. It's a huge priority for me, because I primarily use my car on the track, and am willing to accept the compromises that come with the lightening. I totally agree with Flash that doing all this really changes the character of the car if you want to keep it as a street car, not to mention totally destroying its resale value. If you really like the style of the 968, you may be stuck with a heavier car than you'd like.

Not to talk you out of a 968, but a few other cars you might want to think about include the 3rd gen RX7 (2790 lb - I had one, and loved it), a Boxster, or maybe even an early Cayman. Good luck with your decision.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-27-2014

cloud - if you got in there and removed your fixed lights, and weight it all up, you would find that you have a lot more stuff in there than you think. there is still a savings, and it's off the front end of the car, which is good, but not as much as one might think. as for being legal, unless those lights have the DOT markings on them, they aren't legal. also, they must be no lower than 24" from the ground at the center, and with your car lowered, they would not be legal, though not all states enforce this. the guys at your inspection place either just missed it, or it isn't enforced there. you got lucky. it's still a federal law though, and that may also be the case in other areas, but it's a roll of the dice. some areas are really tight.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - PorscheG96 - 06-27-2014

I don't think the spare tire + tool removal is 40 lbs but I'll weigh them this weekend. The runroof is definitely 22 lbs, I weighed mine recently, so I'd think a carbon roof conversion could save at least 17 lbs on the sunroof alone with interior lining or 20 lbs by replacing the whole roof.

Flash, I think you can confidently use stock seat belts with Recaro PP - it's basically the same seat as the CS seats which Porsche used with stock belts on the street cars.

A LW FW can probably save more than 12 lbs - I need to weigh the stock one but I have a plan for one of these that nobody has tried yet. It should save 25-30 lbs. Rear seats also still sounds too high, I'd guess 10 lbs but don't know for sure. And I definitely think Lexan hatch can save a ton of weight, I just don't know for a fact yet.

What are these RS door cards? I thought AppBiz only makes parts for 911's which is what they told me when I asked a while back...

I agree with Cloud about wheels. For some reason they're very hard to find in 17" Porsche fitments. You could spring for some very lightweight custom wheels by Forgeline or someone similar but they're $1-1.5k per wheel. I just had some CCW wheels made in 18x7.5 ET59 for SCCA street class which I was told SHOULD weigh about 18 lbs. That made me pretty happy but when I weighed them it was closer to 22 lbs and heavier than the factory MY02 Carrera Lightweight 18x7.5 ET50 in Boxster fitment by BBS. Those are 19-20 I think.

You can find seats much lighter weight than Recaro PP but they're probably far less comfortable. Besides getting in and out of CS seats, they're actually very comfortable to sit in for hours at a time.

Check these out! https://www.tillett.co.uk/shop/shopDisplayCategories.asp?id=9&cat=Car+Racing+Seats

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-27-2014

spare, et all - it is. that spare is really heavy

sunroof - don't forget the framing required if you are just going to do a drop in. the panel itself does a lot in stiffening the chassis. drive around without it, and then with it, and see for yourself. a properly built carbon fiber sunroof panel will weigh about 10 lbs (so maybe you save 12 or so).

flywheel - depends on the one you use, whether or not you have to add the harmonic balancer to deal with the vibrations, etc. DMF weighs about 36lbs

i agree the rear seats sounds high, but i haven't weighed those.

lexan hatch - the OEM assembly is not as heavy as people think, and most of the weight is in the frame. the glass itself is not that bad. if you eliminate the frame, and permanently attach the window, you can save a lot. if you need to run a frame and be able to open the hatch, you won't save much. i can probably get an exact number for you by weighing the one on the car here near me. that being said, it's at the outer perimeter of the car, and up high, so a pretty good place to lose weight, if you are willing to make the compromises, and spend the money.

seats/belts - if the side of the seat protrudes beyond any point of the body, in other words if the belt does not completely lie flat against the body, then they cannot be used safely. also, if the shoulder belt is moved outward so that the belt no longer rests firmly on your collar bone, it is also not safe.

that's why the holes are there in these racing seats. it lowers the belt point so that it allows the belt to hold you in the seat.

there are lighter seats. beards are about 13lbs. i ran those in the mgb, using very light brackets, though the seat did not adjust at all that way.

again though, all of these things lead you in a direction that may not be pleasing. you will lose a lot of smoothness, and certainly quietness, by lightening the car. that may or may not be a good thing. i've gone both ways, and see the ups and downs of all of it. the 968 is not a car i would get crazy about weight with, having done that already and regretted a lot of it. a stripped out 924 with a 968 engine and trans would be a much better choice.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - Cloud9...68 - 06-27-2014

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1403884524' post='159127']

a stripped out 924 with a 968 engine and trans would be a much better choice.

[/quote]

That's an interesting suggestion - it would relatively inexpensive, too, leaving the OP plenty of money left over to install 968-style body panels if he wants to replicate the look of the 968 (as I think about it, I'm not sure how practical that would be, though).

I checked, and the headlights I bought are apparently DOT certified (at least that's what it says in their literature). So hopefully I'm OK. And when I weighed everything I took out, none of which I put back when installing the fixed lights, it came to around 35 lbs. It really surprised me, because I had become so used to everybody exaggerating weight loss claims.

I agree about the hatch glass itself. Awhile back, I looked up the density of glass vs. lexan, measured the area of the hatch, and concluded that the savings wasn't all that much. Don't remember the actual estimate, though. I'm sure that as you say, lightening the frame would save a lot.

Drove a clubsport now I need to make! Advice?! - flash - 06-27-2014

there are a couple of guys running a 924 with a 968 setup. the cars are really fast.

if you had weighed all of the materials for your conversion, i would bet it would be about 15 lbs. it's funny how little stuff adds up though.

lexan weighs 45% that of glass. the rear window, as i remember, and from rough calculations based on size, weighs about 35lbs. that means you would save a whopping 16lbs, if you plan to use the frame.