[ds968]

This might not be a good idea, but I'll go for it anyway : given the recent tragedy of Trayvon Martin's death, what do you guys think about the school of thought which argues that good kids who emulate the appearance and conduct of " gangstas " because they believe it's cool to do so and gives them cred in school or with friends, actually invites fear, conflict, etc. in the community at large.. Forget race for a moment , as hard as that may be, and focus on our youth, of all colors and creeds. On one hand I see that point ( not that it excuses ignorance and prejudice), but the world is as it is, yet on the other hand I can't help but think that's similar to arguing that women who wear short skirts or a top that reveals some cleavage are asking to be raped. Not sure what the answer is ; all of our youth dressing in ivy league clothes and girls wearing burkas, or is there a sensible answer to all of this ?

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[Scott Collins]

We may never know what happened there, except for the fact that an unarmed boy was shot to death. Unless that person is an intruder in your house, I don't think that there are many situations where shooting an unarmed person is justified. I'm not saying none, just not many. It doesn't look like the shooter was injured. I am sure more will come out....



Appearance, clothing, the way we present ourselves, sends messages, sometimes intended, sometimes unintended. Kids have always tried to act and look tough. Not every kid, but some. Just like a peacock. I think it's pretty natural for humans to do that sort of thing. Everyone here drives a Porsche.

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[Chris Vais]

Well I think there are two issues here. This kid was clearly, to my mind stereotyped. Living where I do and working where I do I see a lot of kids, not just African American kids, but kids in general with the sagging pants and hoodie uniform. Sometimes it can be a menacing look, but mostly it is just kids being kids. In my day it was shrink to fit Levis a white tee shirt with the sleeves rolled up, the whole James Dean look. Why because he was the rebel without a cause, a threat to society, and my generation thought was really cool. What you see today in kids is no different, just the uniform.



I think the bigger problem here is the access to a firearm by a wannabe cop. I've heard all the arguments from the gun control crowd about why we should be free to have unabridged access to guns. Most of the firearms advocates have never actually been confronted with the decision to raise a weapon up on another person and take another persons life. It looks so easy on TV, but I have had to raise a weapon up on another human being and I have taken the lives of other human beings as a result. Most of us who have been placed in that awful situation don't wish to relive it, don't wish to talk about it and don't wish to see another person placed in the same situation.



People of color are stereotyped in this country, Don't believe me, if you have an African American male friend, ask him how many times he has been stopped for DWB (driving while black). I can think of no reason on earth why a wannabe cop should have access to a firearm and I can think of no reason on earth why a young man of color, minding his own business should be chased down, confronted and killed, none whatsoever. Am I passionate about this, you bet.

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[tamathumper]

@ds968, I think more than anything, I'm shocked that people feel entitled to an opinion about an event none of them witnessed. It has highlighted such an incredible power of the media to drive public sentiment.

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[Scott Collins]

Chris - that's a great comment.

tama - well said.

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[Rap]

Chris I agree and disagree with you. I suspect all of us aped what we thought was cool in terms of behavior and dress. With that I agree. Firearms are such a contentious issue that it's difficult to find agreement. It seems one is either for or against guns. I have never shot at or killed someone, in that I feel extremely fortunate. S I won't sit in judgement of those that have. Scott is correct in his comment regarding how the media has played this. If a black shoots a black no big deal. If a white shoots a black it becomes an opportunity to run with and expand a racial story. Often all without the context of the facts. Why a crime watch person was carrying sort of eludes me. Other than it was legal to do so. Hoodies are an issue I will front load here, I'm biased regarding them! In my area, white or black, if you wear a hoodie there is a very high probability that your in the drug trade, you use drugs or you have had some previous interaction with the criminal justice system. Not an absolute. Many of the patients we treat wear hoodies. Until that is they go indoors and we tell them to take them off. Constant problem. We ask them to take them off to remove this association with drugs. Seem foolish? Every little thing counts in trying to break this association. Let me personalize this, my youngest has worn a hoodie. Guess what, she was involved for years with drugs. She is sober now, guess what no more hoodie. Again no absolutes just high probabilities. Wearing a hoodie doesn't mean your a criminal or should be shot. But if your in a bad neighborhood with known gang affiliations , drug trade problems or crime problems looking like those who are involved with all of this puts you at risk as being identified as one of them. Fair or not, right or wrong this is just what occurs. I'm not sure what the answer is. I do know that when I was involved doing things I shouldn't I learned early on to fly below the radar so as not to attract attention. Guess what, it worked! Of course I was just lucky and am not kidding myself about that. But it helped. Education and legitimate role models and examples of how to escape what seems like a rigged game are what the focus needs to be on.

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[flash]

we have allowed the stereotyping to continue, and have created a lot of the problem by allowing freedoms. kids are allowed to dress the way they want, thereby opening up the door for segregation. school uniforms, or standardized dress would fix that one.



further, this whole "politically correct" thing doesn't help. having terms like "african americans" without having terms like "mexican americans" being equally balanced further exacerbates the issues. there are more hispanics than blacks here. why do we only give the term to the one group? we create our own segregation and conflict by allowing groups to separate themselves. but then, it's the differences that make america, so what is the right answer?



as for guns, the second amendment was created to as to provide for the ability of the people to rise up, form a militia, and to overthrow the government. given the state of things, this is becoming an ever-increasing likelihood.

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[Rap]

Funny you should talk about uniforms, at our long term adolescent program we require the patients to wear a uniform. Chinos and a polo that we provide. The kids totally dig it. Chris its sort of like belonging to a group or perhaps to a behavior. Point is we find that the discipline we require, expect and enforce, too hard a word, is accepted because they are so hungry for it. They want to know the parameters and what the lines are. Why because so few parents are telling them or enforcing what they halfheartedly tell them they have to do. These are kids across the spectrum

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[ds968]

email excerpt from a friend of mine in Florida..



We were taught as children not to judge a book by it's cover . It's an old saying so it must have been a problem for a long time. The reality is that judging is instinctive. Like all animals, we respond to non verbal clues and either become comfortable, uneasy, or even threatened based on our read of the situation, our own experiences, and our own prejudices. It happens in every community even when everyone is the same color , or religion, etc. How a person dresses, walks, and looks or doesn't look at you sends a message.

Criminals are outliers. There are bad guys in every race and culture , but most of the population in every race and culture are good guys. So let's teach our kids to present themselves as good guys-- in non threatening ways to make people comfortable and to diffuse situations that are misjudged. Let's call for our communities and media to support this effort. I'm not making any excuses for the shooter, far from it, it's the peripheral issue this highlights and that is our youth, the system in which we raise and educate them, a culture further fueled by the divisiveness the media continuously thrives on. Parents, teach your kids to make others comfortable: teach them to smile when passing by others, especially adults. A nod or a pleasant greeting puts others at ease.

Teach your kids good posture and about personal space. If they want to be non conformist with hair, clothing, body art that's fine if they compensate with a comforting smile, eye contact and greeting.

Media, stop defining bad guys by their race or culture and start defining good guys in that way: Spot light the 80-95% of people in most communities who are not only tolerant but color blind. Racists are in the minority nationally, and in most communities. Stop hiring commentators who thrive on divisiveness. Maybe, just maybe we can prevent the next tragedy .



BTW, she is white, her husband is black, they have three kids

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[Rap]

Here here! This would work well if we could figure out a way the media could make money from this story or movement. Web hits, ad dollars and total number of viewers per show drive them now. Sound silly. Do any of you remember the story around xmass where people were coming into K Mart and anonymously buying xmass presents for people? The story died off after xmass. But it got huge publicity when it ran. Good stories can be run but they need a spark to start the fire and then a steady controlling hand to keep the fire tended. If any of you out there did this you know the feeling that this engendered in yourself. Even the most coldhearted and right wing ruthless business types got a overwhelming feeling from doing this. Perhaps even teared up! Good things properly presented can run. Dan your friends sound like good people worth knowing! Do they have as many shoes as you?

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[ds968]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1333301584' post='124292']

Do they have as many shoes as you?

[/quote]



this one lives in Florida, who needs shoes there ? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> It's all flip-flops, 24/7 <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Rap]

Nice reply.

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[flash]

flip flops. hate those. no shower shoes in public. tacky. the guy who nailed me in the denali was wearing those. he didn't know it was illegal to drive in california with them. they found that to be contributory to the accident.

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[Scott Collins]

I have had many students wear flip flops in school. Told them that they are helping to keep podiatrists in business.

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[Rap]

Do they know what a podiatrist is? Lol

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[ds968]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1333620440' post='124556']Do they know what a podiatrist is? Lol[/quote]



Reminds me of a dialogue on some sitcom ( can't remember which one though ). " I took my kid to a podiatrist , he was sick this morning .". " That's pediatrician you dummy, podiatrists treat feet problems ". ". So..? My kid has feet... ! "

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[flash]

i just can't understand how anybody thinks those are acceptable footwear for anywhere not immediately subjected to large amounts of water (showers, pools, etc). they are not attractive and are not safe for driving. don't get me started on people with ugly feet wearing them.



i don't even want to talk about spandex, and the fact that it is not everybody's friend.................



back more on topic



what we wear says a lot about us. right or wrong, people formulate opinions based on first impressions. dress well, people will think you are somebody (even though they may find out later they don't like you or you're an idiot or whatever). at least you start on the positive. dress like a bum or a crook and you start out at a loss and have to work your way up in respect and admiration, starting with your own.



there a multi-billion dollar industry that is based entirely on first impressions, from makeup to shoes, and everything in between. it's important, and people need to keep this in mind before stepping out of the house.



we do judge a book by its cover, and that is never going to change.

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