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How Australia views the USA
#21

I was recently reading a debate about Government policies and their implementation here in Australia. Just how much of a "nanny" or socialist state do we have - well we recently have had "crack-downs" on a most serious offence, where offenders have been fined $150 per offence - for either not walking across a road in the CBD according to the traffic lights, or did not cross the road at the traffic lights.



Now whilst this might seem innocuous, lets have a look at the logic at play here. The Government thinks that it can legislate your safety and enforce it through penalties (ever seen a Government program that actually rewards you?) by telling you to cross the road at traffic lights. Will this guarantee your safety - absolutely not. Can you walk across the road as soon as the lights show a walk signal and the Government will guarantee your safety, no, people can run red lights - traffic queues across the intersection (but these people do not get booked - only pedestrians), etc. How can a Government sitting in an office, make a better or more informed decision on whether or not it is safe to cross a road at a given moment in time than you can as a responsible adult.



We have people over here who are drunk and enter the surf who then claim compensation from the Government - because it did not prevent them from entering the water - even thought Surf Lifesavers do not have the power to stop you entering the wate r- only Police can arrest someone. Same for people who claim compensation from Pub's for selling them too much alcohol and then they do stupid things - it is the Pub's fault - not the person being stupid.



As a society - we need to stop our Government's from trying to tell us what to do and people actually believing that it is the role of the Government to make everything alright for them - they need to get off their own arses and make it right. The role of the Government should be to interfere as little in it's citizen's lives as possible.



My father-in law has a 2,400m^2 property that has a two bedroom house on it - but is not connected to sewerage - it has a septic system and leach drains on the property. He wants to build a "Granny Flat" out the back to live in, while his sister and husband live in the main house. The Health Department here in Western Australia have a rule that says that the maximum size of such a dwelling can be no more than 65m^2. What this has to do with the septic system capacity is beyond me. Even the local council says that the ruling is stupid. You can put 14 people in the main house and nobody would care - but build a single bathroom "Granny Flat" and it has to be tiny - due to it not being hooked up to sewerage. You cannot even seek an exemption or variation - how stupid is this.



We are becoming like Lemmings that follow popular opinion or legislation over the cliff. We have lost the ability to rationally question authority. This is what the Government wants - don't think, we will look after you, you need us, if you don't do what we want, we will punish you.



If you were walking down the street and someone came the other way and took 50% of what you had in your wallet - would you be thankful that they left you some money? This is what the Government does to us every day, and we accept it. THey waste our money without any accountability, cannot balance the books or live within their needs - but if it was us, we would go to jail and be declared bankrupt, but Governments can just keep running up debt (and hope someone in the future will fix it - as it is all too hard now).



If society does not wake up - we will have socialism by democracy. The Australian government already openly talks about it's policy of "Tax and Transfer" in terms of created wealth. While this does bring some social benefits in terms of social equity and a reduction in crime (something the USA does not have to the same extent - hence some of the social problems), it does create an ever increasing Taxation burden.



1% of Australians pay 30% of income tax. The top 5% pay something like 65% of income tax and about half of all eligible taxpayers are actually pay nothing or get a hand-out under our system. Where is the incentive to work. The most popular catch phrase in Australia currently is Tax the Rich - they can afford it. Look at France where they have brought in a top tax rate of something like 75% of what you earn.



Sorry to harp on, but the population needs to wake up and start to see just how screwed over we are getting. At least in America, the population can demand a new election if enough people demand it - we cannot here in Australia.



How about we work towards getting Governments that actually represent the "People" not the Intellectual Elites or Fanatical Special Interest groups.
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#22

That sounds just like where America is headed under this administation. More taking from the producers and more re-distribution and hand outs to the non producers.
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#23

Judge - sorry I also didn't reply to the "Extreme Right Wing" comment. I am not a Right Wing person, do not belong to any political party, am a member of a Union (but actually vote Liberal because the Labour Party cannot manage an economy and has never had to build anything in their lives, just try to screw over those that do - but would most likely vote Democrat if they still existed as a protest vote). I am a non-conformist and actually seek alternative opinions to popular media and am very well educated, read extensively and have an IQ that puts me in the top 1% of the population. This does not make me right, but I do look at all sides of the equation prior to making a decision, along with the logic and keep on open mind to further development/arguments - not emotive arguments behind it - this is normally called being logical.



We need to stop simply accepting the garbage and "spin" that we are constantly getting fed and start actually looking for what is really going on. This is called normally "an intellectual pursuit". You test a hypothisis against the facts to see if it is valid or not - if it is (or correlates well - it holds true, if not it is probably false).



As per the previous posts - society is a dynamic system. You cannot simply change one variable without the system then going through change (sometimes large, sometimes small - depends on the system you are looking at). We might be able to predict the weather a short time into the future, but we cannot accurately a long time into the future, nor can we control it - it is a dynamic system (like society), but we think we can control society and that it behaves in a uniform manner without extremes - a foolish assumption in logic. The major issues are normally at the extremes of any system - not the mid-point.



I would suggest reading some of Retired US Senator Ron Paul's books on Liberty and the role of Government. The concept of Liberty and Freedom are not strong metaphors in Australia - possibly due to our convict history, but never-the-less, they are not concepts that we discuss or hold up as values. Equality would be more of an Australian value - hence the "tall poppy" syndrome that is so prevalent over here.



The key point of Henry Hazlitt's book - Ecomonic's in One Lesson - written in the 1940's and still applicable now is - "The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups". This is what we have failed to follow - with a million special interest groups and government propaganda trying to tell us what and how to live our lives.



Lets look at the speed issue you raised - why should the speed limit be 100km/h - when in Germany you can do unlimited speeds - but the driver is responsible for showing it was safe - or in the USA where you can legally do 85mph or ~140km/h on the freeways (55mph speed limit was for fuel conservation only - something most people forget). Should the Government fine us for travelling 3km/h over the posted speed limit and have as their third highest source of revenue traffic infringements - tell me we are not living in a Police state. We now have laws here in Western Australia that if you fail to stop for police you will lose you license for at least 6 months and get a $5,000 fine. The police were hiding behind a tree today when I was driving with a laser and I was in the outside lane towing a car trailer with furniture on it - if they tried to pull me over I would not have been able to - so should I lose my license and get fined $5,000 - this is stupid.



So banning guns and making it hard for the average person to get them in Australia has possibly (only possibly) reduced gun related deaths, but it has caused a lot of environmental issues - and, this is the big one - it does not prevent anyone who really wants to get a gun from doing so. All you need to do is join a sporting shooting club and a basic background check.



I agree that having to have a gun safe is a good idea (it secures the weapon and also makes it harder to get at if angry, etc). I also do not feel the need to have a gun (I live in a major city) due to crime, but, I lived in QLD when the floods occurred and it is easy to see just how quickly society can fall apart when basic essentials are not available (my wife had to console a father who could not get fresh milk for his kids, arguments in shops, etc). The Government did nothing - our expensive naval support ships failed and they did not get private industry to ship in food or fly it in. A couple of more weeks and I really think it would have got ugly. No-one cared about northern QLD - we got hit first, only Brisbane (more people). Then everyone in Australia donated to the Premier's Support Fund (something like $2Billion dollars) and then the Premier of QLD means tested whether or not you got anything - and the Federal Government than taxed everyone on top. Socialist state - almost. Look at how many hoops you have to jump through to get anything approved. It takes over 7 years to get a mining permit and hundreds of millions of dollars wasted prior to even start building anything to then produce anything and then the Government wants royalties, Mining Tax, Payroll Tax, GST, Workers Compensation, Grants to build infrastructure (isn't this what the taxes were for), etc, etc. Having had to deal with them - they are all parasites of the first order - they add nothing, they simply suck the life out of those the try to - until you give up.



Now they want to remove the Diesel Fuel rebate from mining companies - the reason that this is in place is that Mining Companies have to build their own roads (also to a much higher standard than what the Government does - double standards and hypocracy - you bet), so they do not pay the portion that funds roads. Why should they pay this excise/tax - they get no benefit from it - unless the Government is now going to build all of their roads. What is this worth per mine (Open Cut) - about $20M to $50M per year - more than the capital cost of most of their roads in total - per year. Absolute Crap.



So, I am not a Lemming that simply goes to work and gets effectively taxed over 50% of my income (income tax, stamp duty, superannuation contribution tax, GST, Sales Tax, Fuel Excise and Tax, Medicare, etc, etc), I actually have to deal with the idiots - and it is painful and most of them do not have a clue about the real world.



Do I respect our Politicians and Government - absolutely not, any process that removes logic for an opinion poll/popularity contest has to be ineffective at best.



Do we need a better solution - absolutely.



Don't get me started on Fiscal Policy and Government spending. We seem to have forgotten history and the GReat Depression - this was caused by Fiat Money and defaults on Soverign Debt - look familiar? Now we have Governments (US/Germany/Britian/China, etc) all trying to devalue their currency's by printing more of it - and Australia still has 4% interest rates and now a $1.04 exchange rate - because we are not doing the same thing. Wars start by Trade wars - have we not learned anything from History?



So - Extreme Right Wing - no. Educated and realistic - I really hope so. I like to debate issues like this - as by debating these we learn more and become more educated. Silencing debate through name calling and labelling people something without knowing is the preserve of the media when they cannot debate an issue - you character assasinate the person to discredit them - not real intelligent.



More than open to the discussion and debate.
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#24

i see no reason that i should not be able to own a cannon or rocket launcher. i want one. i enjoy shooting them (yes, i've done that). when it comes time to overthrow the government, that is exactly the kind of weapon i want. it is also exactly what the second amendment protects and why. just because i own one does not mean that i am going to go out and target a school. i own a car that goes 170mph. does that mean that i am going to go blazing down my neighborhood street as the kids are walking to school?



those who want to strip us of our weapons are only trying to ensure that they can rule without opposition. it is the first step to tyranny.



the solution is not to ban weapons. it is to make people responsible for them. if a kid takes his mother's guns and does something, the mother should be held just as accountable. if you think that is wrong, we already have similar laws for accomplices. if you're driving the getaway car in a bank robbery where the other guy killed somebody, you are also charged with the murder. we need to make people take responsibility for things, and stop blaming it on the other guy.



news flash - even if guns were banned, those who would use them for ill purpose would use other ways to do their damage. zip guns are quite easy to make, and would become very popular with criminals. bombs are much easier to make, do more damage, and can be concealed much more easily. i am frankly quite surprised that we have not seen a lot of these placed in public high traffic locations. terrorists don't use guns.



if we really want to stop the violence, then we need to ban religion. that is the root of all major conflicts throughout history, and continues to be to this day. it stirs more anger than anything else, has wiped out entire civilizations, and is responsible for more death and destruction than all other crimes combined. yet, we continue to let that fester. such a war is a large part of what brought this country into being, and religion is now beginning to separate our country.



we just don't seem to be able to let go of the crutches. we always have to blame our lot on somebody else. tv made me shoot up the school. video games are evil. god told me to do it. it's all crap. we are responsible for our own lives and decisions. i'm so sick and tired of "victims". life is a bitch. get over it. you live. you struggle. you die. then it's over. you can choose to do something or fall back on a crutch and blame the universe or whatever for your lot in life. be a wolf or be a sheep. your call.



i put the anti-gun people right in there with those who would sue mcdonalds because their coffee was too hot. if you're too stupid to avoid burning yourself with your coffee, then don't get the coffee. if you're too stupid to control your guns, then don't get one. it's really not that complicated.
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#25

Amen Flash!!
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#26

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1356706638' post='136731']



if we really want to stop the violence, then we need to ban religion. that is the root of all major conflicts throughout history, and continues to be to this day. it stirs more anger than anything else, has wiped out entire civilizations, and is responsible for more death and destruction than all other crimes combined. yet, we continue to let that fester. such a war is a large part of what brought this country into being, and religion is now beginning to separate our country.



[/quote]



Such an otherwise good post totally weakened by this paragraph. If the Founding Fathers were so smart with the Second Amendment, which I believe they were, then QED their FIRST Amendment must be equally wise.



Religion can be and is misused just as guns are. However, to say that religion is the ROOT cause of ALL the major conflicts of history is ludicrous. WW I, WW II, Viet Nam??? Come on. The major conflicts of history were waged for money, power, land, water, resources. Some may have had a pretext of religion in them, granted, but facts don't back up your statements at all. Did the US bomb Hiroshima or Nagasaki for reasons of religion?



Personally speaking religion has turned my life around, and it has brought richness, fulfillment, joy and answers to countless humans. In this country anyone can turn to religion or not as they wish. Just as they have the right to keep and bear Arms if they want.
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#27

I think Flash should be subjected to an "assault keyboard" ban...he should have to be licensed and have a background check before he can legally post....maybe we'll just give him lower case letters since they are safer.



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/glare.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Jay
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#28

Flash I happen to agree with Lear. Great post except for the religion comment. Yes religion has provoked and provided the grist for religious wars and persecutions. Yet the human dynamic is such that regardless of beliefs we are a species that will always argue and disagree. Much of this might be part of our survival instinct or need to have and accumulate to survive. Early man who probably didn't have religion still fought over bones and women. Although I don't want to hijack this thread, to some degree religion does provide a bringing together of people, communities, regions, states and countries. It's only when religion refuses to allow citizens the freedom of belief and practice that we have wars. We have some disagreements over religions in the US but no wars. This of course was one of the reasons this country and its system of laws were started in the first place. Flash perhaps you need to start your own religion!
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#29

i really don't want to get into beliefs or the existence of god, as nobody can prove anything one way or the other. but, we can discuss the merits and pitfalls of organized religion, which is entirely different, and has little to nothing to do with the belief in the existence of god.



yes, ww1, ww2 and viet nam. if you go back and look at our propaganda, it was always "we have god on our side" nonsense, and fighting the godless nazis, commies, and such. it's much easier to stir the masses when you use some nebulous fictional entity like god as a motivator.



by the way, these were not major conflicts if you do the math on the world's population. we've killed more people with cigarettes than all of those combined. the media made them out to be a to bigger than they really were. if we had the same capabilities in 1270, things would be very different. i'm not saying they weren't big, or that millions didn't die, i'm just saying that proportionally they were not as large as other "holy wars".



i would argue that religion did nothing for you, any more than joining any other club would. you did that for yourself. you merely hang your hat on that peg. many people do. it is easier to think that something else, larger than us, is responsible or looking over you, than it is to think that you are responsible for your own destiny. man needs to explain things. he finds it easier to think that god was responsible for something, rather than accept that life is random. it's easier to think there is some plan beyond his comprehension, rather than accept that crap happens for no reason. it's comforting. that's why religion was invented. that's fine. we all ask the big questions, and we all want answers. religion was created to serve that purpose. it was then further used to control the masses. it was very easy for a leader to use god as his backup. it still is. it's easy to argue with a leader, but who could argue with god? this was also likely a good thing at the time. man being who he is, would never have survived if the threat of something larger dropping on his head was not there to keep him in check.



as you say though, it can be as misused as anything. we are currently running scared as a nation due entirely to a group who also claim they are following god's direction. which god is right? who cares? would any god allow such a thing? if god is all knowing and all powerful, and demands our worship in order to move on, why be so vague? why let man subject his will to interpretation? clearly we aren't smart enough to figure things out on our own, or are we? or do we just say something lame like "it's all a part of god's plan"? that's like my mother saying "because i said so". man, being who he is, will take advantage of the need of the masses to have an explanation for life.



i'm not for a minute going to deny anybody their beliefs, heck, i could be very wrong, but i do think that organized religion is responsible for a lot more of the problems than people are willing to admit.
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#30

Wait Flash, your car can go 170? GOD, that's so unfair!
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#31

lol - blame god for that one.
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#32

This is what I was afraid of; call this a rational debate???



Yes CaW, much of our Australian governments' policies, at all levels, are short sighted, stupid, venal, and even corrupt in some ways, but an armed revolution, or a conspiracy to subject us to tyranny????. Come on. If given a choice between a conspiracy and a f***-up, bet on the f-up every time. BTW I drive fast when I think I won't get caught, and I smoke a pipe!



Flash, I have no problem with you having a cannon or a rocket launcher, but if you can have one legally then nothing is there to stop the crazies having one too. Do you really think that is a good idea??? Wouldn't you be prepared to forego your own cannonical ambitions to stop the gangs and crackheads from getting one perfectly legally???



And again the debate should not be about "stripping us of our weapons" but reducing the number of the most dangerous firearms out here in the community. And do you really, truly believe that "they" are seeking to subject the population of the great USA to some kind of "middle earth" style of tyranny???



Maybe I'm a Pollyanna but despite having to deal with some of the scum and lowlifes that most people seem to be most afraid of, I still believe in the essential goodness of the vast majority of the populace: yes, even if you include politicians in the sample. Someone once said that the police spend about 75% of their time dealing with 5% of the population: from my observation that's about right.



The polarisation of the gun debate in the US, with Feinsein at one end and LaPierre at the other, is an example of the deterioration in the level of political debate which ignores the historical truth that politics is, or should be about the possible. And if you haven't seen it yet, try and catch the first series of "The Newsroom" on TV or DVD. It's all there.



As you can see by this post there are too many ???? in this whole debate for me, so I'm out. I'm going out to wash my car.
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#33

lol - yes, i think the government is trying to strip us of our ability to fight back. one by one, we have lost almost all of our rights. freedom in this country nowadays is really an illusion. we really don't have that much freedom. i'm not sure how much we should have either. there are valid arguments for a dictatorship, as well as a full democracy and a socialist state too. i don't pretend to have all the answers on that one.



the firearms are not inherently dangerous. they don't go off by themselves. it takes somebody pulling the trigger. that is what we need to get control of. we allow people to live in society that have no business being allowed to live at all. we nurture that segment too. these people want to live like animals. why we don't have one large prison, isolated from the rest of the world, and just abandon them all there forever, is beyond me.



that's really what australia was to begin with. i think they had it right. somewhere along the line, we got soft.
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#34

Ok, so to possibly add some material for discussion:



1. The original wording of the 2nd amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."



2. "In no particular order, early American settlers viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes:

  • deterring tyrannical government;

  • repelling invasion;

  • suppressing insurrection;

  • facilitating a natural right of self-defense;

  • participating in law enforcement;

  • enabling the people to organize a militia system."


Both from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amen...nstitution



Roland
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Roland

'93 Coupe Tip Silver on Grey, '02 911 C4S, '89 Vanagon Syncro -- (RIP: 944, 911SC, 931, MGB, VW Bug, GTO, Sprite.)
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#35

yup - all still very valid reasons to uphold the ideas behind the 2nd amendment. not a single one of those is no longer applicable or current. the founding fathers really got that one right.
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#36

by the way, serious kudos to all involved in this conversation. once again we have shown ourselves to be able to discuss volatile topics with very polarized opinions in nature, without anybody getting into name-calling or any other such behavior. i'm very proud and impressed.
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#37

Roland,



Would you support this legislation? (First Amendment)



Please urge your congressman to support “The Keyboard Licensing Act of 2013”. This legislation will remove all non-registered keyboards from unlicensed authors and force anyone who attempts to post on any website to be subjected to mandatory education, background and mental health checks. The legislation further imposes the banning of all capital letters with the exception of sentence beginning and proper nouns. Exclamation points shall be completely banned by all but Government writers as there is no good purpose for anyone in the general population of the United States to use this dangerous punctuation in a domestic situation. Please support this legislation, the minds of poor innocent children are being permanently damaged by the spewing of unsupported hogwash on the internet, we cannot allow any further erosion of our children’s ability to gather and integrate knowledge by the perpetuation of continued internet stupidity.
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#38

Again, I agree with Flash. I truely believe the government of America is systematically trying to take away our rights and freedoms. Taking away guns being a huge win for the government and control of its citizens. I also believe we will have a revolution before they get away with it. Just think how differently things would be in North Korea and China if people could defend themselves. Think how different Europe would be if Jews had guns to defend themselves against Hitler. A country with unarmed citizens is a country ripe for the taking.
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#39

Man plans - god laughs! I seem to be an ongoing comedy for God in his infinite wisdom, because if there is one, he throws a spanner in most of my personal life plans.



Why would you ban the law abiding citizens of your country arms, when the lawless can easily get them? Do our laws only focus on those who obey them (impact the most and the good)?



Australia is a different society to the USA. I agree with Flash, perhaps we should dump serial offenders on an island somewhere to their own devices (an adult version of The Lord of the Flies).



When a Government targets the law abiding within its citizenry, no good can come from it. Laws should be to protect the majority from the minority who chose to live outside of them.



In terms of societal controls, there were only three historically. Religion, do something bad and you cop it in the afterlife, expulsion from the community into the wilderness and/or physical punishment by society itself (stoning, hanging and lesser forms like imprisonment).



Religion mostly does not work in the western world. If you try to kick someone out of society (move them), what is the impact? - next to nil, and prisons are now more like a day spa over here (yoga classes, etc) than any form of punishment or disincentive. So we now have zero societal controls. Hard to see why the glory days of the western world are coming to an end and China is on the rise. Murder someone in China and you get shot, here you get 7 years with parole.



What would happen if Australia was invaded by a foreign power? The population would have to accept it or wait for another nation to come and bail us out (the USA most likely). Would anyone in their right mind invade the USA? Not unless you wanted 2/3 of the population shooting back at you.



The next wars will be over food security. Look at China purchasing Australian agricultural land. Same for energy access. We have foreign companies buying our coal mines, simply to get access to cheap energy (vertical integration).



Gun control is just a vocal lobby group trying to push an agenda. Nothing more. It (in the USA) would impact only the lawful majority.



As I have said previously, I don't own a gun (or need one), but why should I stop others who legally want one.



Where will this end? Who gets to chose what I can and cannot do? Will fast food be rationed to reduce obesity (or introduce the so called Fat Tax - how is giving the Government a solution to this issue?). Will I be made to drive a hybrid or not be be able to buy a V8 (I don't have one but would like to).



I just want all of the lobbyists and "experts" to shut up and get real jobs that produce something and stop trying to tell me how to live my life and conform. We now have legislation where it is illegal to be a member of an "outlaw motorcycle group" - which I am not, without any proof that the entire group is engaged in illegal activities. It actually makes me want to join them simply to give the Government the "bird".



Our elected representatives want to tell us rather than listen to us, same for the media.



I think I have worn a hole in my soapbox. I just wish Australians were not so apathetic.
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#40

[quote name='94SilverCab' timestamp='1356719332' post='136751']

Roland,



Would you support this legislation? (First Amendment)



Please urge your congressman to support “The Keyboard Licensing Act of 2013”. This legislation will remove all non-registered keyboards from unlicensed authors and force anyone who attempts to post on any website to be subjected to mandatory education, background and mental health checks. The legislation further imposes the banning of all capital letters with the exception of sentence beginning and proper nouns. Exclamation points shall be completely banned by all but Government writers as there is no good purpose for anyone in the general population of the United States to use this dangerous punctuation in a domestic situation. Please support this legislation, the minds of poor innocent children are being permanently damaged by the spewing of unsupported hogwash on the internet, we cannot allow any further erosion of our children’s ability to gather and integrate knowledge by the perpetuation of continued internet stupidity.

[/quote]

Yes, with a minor change to this clause "...from unlicensed authors...." change to "...from authors who own guns...." <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
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Roland

'93 Coupe Tip Silver on Grey, '02 911 C4S, '89 Vanagon Syncro -- (RIP: 944, 911SC, 931, MGB, VW Bug, GTO, Sprite.)
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