[flash]

i just heard the dumbest PCA DE rule yet

they require that the driver seat and belts match the passenger seat and belts - the idea is supposedly that if the driver has a fixed race seat and harness, so should the instructor

while this may seem on the surface to make sense, and certainly i don't want to see the instructors get hurt (lol - well, not all of them) let me point out the flaws in the logic:

a driver is more in control of the car if he has a fixed seat and harness - this is a given - if he is not sliding around, he is more able to control the car

not everybody wants to have fixed seats in the passenger area

removing and replacing the seats for DE days is NOT wise - the threads get worn on the seat mounting points - they are NOT designed to be removed and replaced repeatedly - doing so wears them and lowers their ability to retain load - this increases the likelihood of the seat ripping out of the floor

a novice driver is safer with an instructor - we all know that

a novice driver is safer with more seat time - we all know that

requiring seats and belts to match only LOWERS the safety level of both occupants if it means that stock seats and belts MUST be used because they must match - this is counter to all concept of driver education and improvement

think about this scenario - they are creating a situation where a guy in an early 911, which otherwise would have a new race seat and harness, to have to reinstall his factory seat and belts, which could be 30 years old - how is this better?

are they just trying to make sure that there are no witnesses?

this was yet another move by the inept PCA attorney to limit liability (much like eliminating fun runs) - unfortunately this one INCREASES that liability by creating a more dangerous situation for both occupants

we should not allow people to be discouraged from taking a Driver Education course because they don't want to put a race seat in the passenger side, nor should they be required to constantly take it in and out, thereby making the car less safe

the simple solution is to group these cars together, in smaller groups, and limit speed in that group - a pace car, and no passing the pace car, is a very simple cure - it is NOT to make the driver sit in less safe seats with less safe belts

please contact your local PCA region and get this rule changed - we all want safer drivers - getting them out on the track is key to making that happen - the single most important safety feature in any car is the skilled driver in control of his car

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[banditsc]

The rules differ from region to region, some are stricter then other. I have a friend that has been doing DE's with one region and decided to sign up for a DE with a another region and he now has to change out his 5 point harness because it can't be more the 5 years old per the other regions rules.

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[flash]

this is a PCA national rule

PCADE_MinimumStandards2009.pdf Size: 85.1 KB  Downloads: 10

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[banditsc]

Interesting, all the regions seems to pick and choose which of those rules they actually enforce. Techinally they are suppose to follow all of them.

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[flash]

yup - there is a lot of discussion about this going on - it is very much at odds with the idea of getting more people to enjoy their cars more and be safer - i would think they would be looking to make new friends and have more fun, but this does not bode well for that

of course, pca is the club of exclusion, so i'm not terribly surprised at this - they just love to tell people they aren't good enough, or don't wear the right shoes, or whatever

perhaps the volkswagon takeover will humble them - bug guys are a pretty friendly bunch

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[banditsc]

Must be a CA thing. My region here has no politics in it and we are more a t-shirt and ball cap kind of crowd here. More about enjoying and working on the cars.

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[flash]

actually the most uptight group i've heard of yet is in PA

but yes, i think CA is also uptight - lol - they are probably just pissed off because there are so many ferraris around and they can't have one

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[rxter]

You don't have to use PCA to do DE right? I imagine that there are plenty of opportunities to do DE events without the PCA stamp of approval.

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[RS Barn]

NJ State law requires dated race harnesses to be Maximum two years old . They actually checked at Rolex race
We were warned State Police may come in and inspect vehicles. at Fall DE
BTW---original harnesses can be 30 years old
UGH!!

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[968LS1]

PCA definetly has issues with their restraint rules. I have aftermarket Cobra seats that have holes for restraints in the upper part but do not have a submarine hole in the seat base. PCA says you can't run 4 point with the factory seat but says nothing about aftermarket seats. I have Schroth ASM 4 point harnesses that are designed specifically as an 4 point anti-submarine restraint to be used with a HANS. PCA does not allow them for some f*#@ing reason so I go through tech with my factory belt and when I go on track I use the Schroth belt. How they decided that a factory seat belt is safer than a properly installed 4 point in beyond me. I do see that running a 4 or 5 point without the holes in the upper seat back would not be safe because the belts could slide off to the side in an impact. I have been a PCA instructor for 12 years and I do like having the same restraint as the driver(stock or aftermarket harness) so I don't have to work at staying in the seat while giving instruction, especially if the student is a good driver; not to mention the passenger seat is 20mph faster! In the event of an accident I want to be restrained as much as possible weather driving or riding.

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[flash]

yeah - arbitrary decisions like that make me nuts

i get the idea behind wanting the restraint - i'm not suggesting that anyone should NOT have the gear - i don't like sloshing around in the passenger seat either

all i am saying is that there should not be a rule that precludes guys with tight budgets, or their own reasons for not wanting to mess with the passenger seat, from being able to go out in the novice group - adding speed limitations, and eliminating ALL passing in that group, would serve the intended purpose much more effectively, and add a potential new group of drivers who otherwise would not be able to learn, or would have to do so in a less safe manner

if they want to enact rules like that in the higher groups, it makes a lot more sense than in the novice group, where i think we should be doing anything we can to get guys out there to learn

i long for the days when "Driver Ed" was only prep for racing, and not a thing in and of itself - it lasted 4 days - you then went out and raced - other than that you just rented open track time

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[johannes356]

See we are running into a problem here where we have a five point harness but standard sport seats. This past year they decided that the set up was illegal because the seats do not have designated areas in the head rest area for the top two restraints to pass through. So its either use 40 year old 3 point harness or buy new seats. Somehow 40 year old belts seem less safe... unless you are a lawyer I suppose.

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[ds968]

Speaking of rules, I'm gathering signatures to introduce a measure ( for the the next State ballot initiatives ) which will mandate all convertible vehicle drivers, and pasengers, to wear a helmet.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

This is Caifornia after all, it may just pass [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

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[gryphon]

DS don't even joke of such things. California leads and the Arizona lemmings typically follow.

Tom

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[ds968]

Yeah, no kidding Tom, and whilst I was obviously making fun of this, it's nonetheless a scary reality ; we are taking one step after another toward a fascist state...and we're not the only ones. I am all for safety of others, but what you do relative to your own safety is solely your business. However, for that to happen one needs to prohibit the capability of suing other parties for choices you make. Right, like that's going to happen anytime in the next millenium.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img]

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