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DIESEL JAG RUNS RINGS AROUND 968
#1

lol - i was watching an episode of top gear where they were running a jag diesel at the nurburgring.  they were trying to beat 10 minutes, which seemed impossible.  i was cracking up at how badly the car was doing, and then jeremy passed a 968, complaining that it needed to get out of the way.  not a good day for the 968, but funny stuff if you can catch it.

 

   

   

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#2

I saw the episode but paid no attention to it. But 'jay172' has given his 968 a bit to much 'wing'?
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#3

lol - i don't generally watch that show, but now and again i catch it while siting down to eat something.  frankly i was ready to switch it off, and then i saw the 968, so i had to stick around to see what else might happen.

 

definitely too much wing.  wings are supposed to give more grip, but then on that car they put on the 993 wheels.  they could have done better by less wing, and more rubber.  

 

i see wings all the time, and in almost all applications, you could do better by better suspension, more tire, and underbody aerodynamics.  wings slow you down.  they have to.  that downforce costs in increased drag. it's physics you can't fight.  they are just easy and inexpensive, and some "tuners" use them for those reasons.  if they were to spend the money on a wind tunnel though (and it's not nearly as expensive as you might think) they could easily get the same downforce, without the drag of the wing, by cleaning up the airflow underneath the car, and at body seams and such, though it does require an engineer to get it right.  something not generally thought about by the weekend warrior is the speed the car will be travelling.  it doesn't take much downforce at the speeds a 968 can travel on a track.  the 968 is fairly heavy for the power it has, and does not have the best aerodynamics.  unless you are at the upper end of racing, you can improve acceleration at speed by reducing the drag, and reduce your lap times a lot more than any increased downforce from a wing can do.

 

the truly hilarious thing is that i see wings on DE cars, and guys running with the window down.  there are no rules, which in some racing classes could prevent you from using things like belly pans, rear baffles, window lips, and headlight trimmers, so why not go ahead and install the things that really work, that don't cost you anything in drag?

 

rant over - i just thought it was interesting to see the 968 get passed by a jag diesel like it was standing still.

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#4

Wait.. what ?! Jaguar made a deisel engine for one of their cars ? Which models , what years ?


That's the factory 968 turbo or turbo rs wing on the car, isn't it ? Looks to be exactly the same to me ..


And last, given Jeremy's life long disdain for Porsche and adoration of any car that's British , I would not be surprised at all if he had the producers pay the 968 driver to let the jaguar go by, just so it makes Clarkson look good, lol...
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#5

GM just might disagree with you on the need for wing.

 

I received the CAR & DRIVER for this month, the new ZR1 has a wing a mile high.

 

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2017/11/0...ar-driver/

 

Jay

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#6

hovere, the highest top speed is with the "small wing". 

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#7

Dare I? Naw.
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#8

again, the speeds dictate the need.  a 968 won't exceed 120 on just about any track, and will never see the speeds that vette will.

 

it also does not mean that correcting the underbody issues would not have much the same effect, without the cost of drag.  the 968 is very unfinished in aerodynamic terms.  run a smoke stream under there, and you'll find out just how bad it is.  i did.  i designed the stuff to correct it, but never installed it, because i was never going to be going fast enough to need it, and once i got rid of the gas shocks and struts, and went to hydraulic, and added the larger swaybars, the need to increase downforce diminished, because the car was more settled, and didn't expose itself so much to underbody air.  the belly pans and rear diffuser were also going to be a pain to deal with in terms of getting under the car and cleaning things.  again, the need dictated by the speed.

 

aerodynamic resistance, or drag, increases exponentially with speed.  a car that needs little to nothing at 100mph, will need a lot more at 140.  a car that goes 210 is going to need a lot.  a car that struggles to hit 150, not so much.  unfortunately, once you increase the drag to produce the downforce, you also increase the need for power to overcome the drag.  it's a never-ending battle against physics.  it is extremely common to see things like every 30lbs of downforce meaning a need for an increase in power of 30hp, just to reach the same speed at the same rate.  yes, you will stick better in a high speed corner, but you will watch guys passing you at lower speeds, that you never had issues with before, and you won't reach speeds you used to reach as easily as before.    there is no free lunch here.

 

none of this matters much though.  most tuners don't understand the engineering and physics, so they bolt on wings.  it's simpler, faster and cheaper.  no real testing is involved.  no math is involved. it's easy to demonstrate the effect.  these are all great sales tools.  it still doesn't mean that the same driver, in the same car, wouldn't have benefitted more by other routes.   that won't change until the customer is willing to pay for that education in their tuner.  the unfortunate reality is that most drivers will never be able to take advantage of the difference either.

 

i'm not saying wings don't work.  i'm saying that, at the speeds of the 968, there are better ways to get there.

 

back on topic - the jag was a 2007 s type i think.  the episode was in 2011.  clearly the 968 should spank the s type, but i thought it was particularly funny to see the reverse.

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#9

The 968 had his blinker on for Gods sake. There was an old lady driving.

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#10

Obviously trick photograpy. They originally ran the race in reverse gear and the 968 easily beat out the Jag. Then they just showed the video backwards! Sort of like the film "Pride of the Yankees" in which the right-handed Gary Cooper played the left-handed Lou Gehrig. They filmed Cooper hitting right-handed and running to third base. Then they just flipped the film over and voila!, Cooper's a lefty running to first! Yea, that's how they did it!
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#11

like I said, they paid the 968 driver.  ^_^  Wink    maybe a new jag F ( the R version ) has a chance on the track against a 968, or, the XJ 220 , lol,  but not many other jags..  

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#12

you guys are missing the whole point.  it's not about whether the jag can beat the 968 or not.  it was just a funny bit of film.

 

it was likely just a typical 968 driver, who has never seen the right side of the dial.  if you haven't pegged the 968, you're a wimp, or not interested in speed.  wimps get passed by diesel jags.  simple gag.  funny to watch.

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#13

I think the funniest part of this post is how they spell “diesel” in Ireland!
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#14

lol - didn't catch that.  neither did spellcheck.  fixed now.  i have set my keyboard to ireland, and it does, in fact, change the spelling on a lot of things (like replacing "z" with "s").  i just didn't question it.

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#15

Can't wait to see what that keyboard does to words when Flash gets back from the pubs...and if you use voice recognition make sure the keyboard has a Foster Brooks translation key ;-)


Speaking of that huge Vette wing , you don't see anything like that on the Chiron, a 270 MPH car.

Seems they figured out different aerodynamic optimization methods . Of course in fairness, it costs about 10 -12 X the Vette's price .
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#16

That should "colour" some of your posts  Wink

 

Jay

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#17

I swear, the moment he starts using bonnet and boot or refers to trucks as lorries , he needs to be banned from the forum :-) . Perfectly fine for all of our other friends / members from across the seas who grew up with the language , but not tolerated when it comes to " turncoats " , :-) :-)
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#18

lol - yes - it adds the "u" into a few words

 

the term for us here is "blow-in".

 

i have already started picking up a lot of the local terms and such.  it just happens.  probably won't be long before i start to pick up an accent.  i've had that happen before.

 

and yes, dan, when you do it right, you usually don't need wings.  that was exactly my point.  wings are just the cheap and easy way to create downforce, but they come at the expense of drag, which for a car with limited power can be a real problem.  if you spend the time and money, you can generally fix the aerodynamic issues, without the drag.  not a lot of weekend warriors willing to do that though, which is why you see so many wings.

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#19

How about a wing and a vacuum fan underneath, like the old Chaparral? That will keep you planted on curves!
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#20

that was a fascinating design.

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