A brief preface of this topic can be found in the recent "timing belt failure" thread ( for those of you who have not yet seen the related posts ); in essence, what I proposed is that we explore the feasibility of establishing a mechanism via which our forum members can help others among us who may experience catastrophic mechanical failures and are facing major financial challenges as a result of such, but that we do so with a bit more than just a post or two expressing empathy. This is a unique, small knit community and I think all of us have a common bond which transcends more than just the fact that we own the same model car. Not sure what exactly that is, or how to articulate it , but I assume most of you know what I mean. So I'm relying on that sentiment in thinking the following concept could be a feasible initiative:
What I would like to do here is open this subject for ideas and discussion so we can eventually reach a conclusion as to what criteria, what parameters, what rules should apply and how to best attain this goal.
The fundamental principle is this: one of our members suffers a disastrous mechanical failure which results in a multi-thousand dollar repair nightmare, at which point we as individuals may choose to contribute ( let's say for now a reasonable amount would be $ 50 each ) to the owner who has experienced this tragic occurrence, on an anonymous basis of course.. They key word here is " choose" - there is no ( and there should not be any ) expectations that contributions WILL be made, but rather that they MAY be made by those of us who are in a position and inclined to do so. What may be a relatively small, arguably an insignificant individual contribution could in aggregate make a world of difference to one of our own - imagine if 100 members send $ 50 each to someone who has just learned he/she needs a $ 5,000 rebuild job, or some other major repair because their timing belt broke, or the pinion bearing gave up, or some other uncommon failure happened resulting in disastrous damage. I use the word uncommon because the scope is not to come to the aid of those of us that may incur expensive repair bills by reason of oil leaks, or water pump failures, or PS rack problems, or old suspension components that break down , or a variety of other common wear and tear items which may indeed cost a thousand or two to repair, but rather to provide as much relief as we can for those rare but catastrophic events where the owner is blindsided by a horrible mechanical breakdown.
( This is not meant to mitigate the costs from traffic accidents where your car sustains major damage - everyone should have insurance for that.. strictly mechanical issues of a catastrophic nature )
This does not happen with nearly enough frequency where any of us have to worry that we'll end up spending $ 50 every single month to bail out various members in dyer need. And again, this can easily be set up where no one knows who contributes and who does not, so there's no opportunity for questioning anyone's generosity, or lack thereof.
That said, I think we definitely need some ground rules before enacting this support system, to establish sensible parameters and a reasonable criteria under which we can make this work. Not to imply that anyone might take advantage of the group's benevolence, and /or act dishonestly, but we must be fair and ethical.
We also need to keep the forum independent of any monetary transactions and use it simply as a communication tool to facilitate awareness of an incident and who the individual is. What takes place after that is strictly up to each individual member who may wish to send in his/her contribution directly to the owner who suffered the loss. There cannot be a fund that is established prior to any incident taking place. The car ownercan post their PayPal account
information, or the address he or she otherwise indicates, or some other means of enabling receipt of the contributions, TBD, that makes sense and that preserves the privacy / anonymity of the contributors. Also it is entirely up to that individual to determine any tax liabilities they may have and/or similar rules and regs that apply to receipt of funds from anonymous sources.
So if you feel this is a good concept ( or if you don't , please do let us know what you think the downside may be ) please chime in with your suggestion for what criteria and parameters we should establish.
My initial, sketchy thoughts are as follows:
Examples of loss : timing belt failure, pinion bearing failure, coolant leaking into the the oil causing major engine damage, cracked block, variocam failure, main seal failure / sudden loss of all your oil.. and things along those lines.
( not loss of your coolant from the HCV breaking and you decide that you'll take a chance and just drive home 50 miles home without anything in your radiator .. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img] )
Anyway, we need to come to a consensus regarding what is to be specifically included and then decide to exclude
everything else.
Also, for the the owner who suffers the loss:
You're the owner of the 968 for at least one year ( welcoming any suggestions for another appropriate timeframe ) before the incident.
You're a member of this forum for _TBD__ before the incident. ( waiting for suggestions here as well )
You provide proof of the car's title as well as a copy of the paid repair invoice.
You agree to ( though not sure how we can assure this other than just going on good faith and trust in one another ) send any overage you get from contributions to the next poor 968 soul that has the misfortune of a loss.
Provide a PayPal account or another account to which anonymous contributions can be made.
Expect NOTHING, but be pleasantly surprised at what may come in [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
So if you guys think of ways we can make this work, please start posting and let's discuss..
Dan
Dan,
As you already know, I'm all for trying something.
My first and perhaps most conservative thought would be the need to provide proof of the issue. There are many people on this forum that I would trust, but there are many others that I do not know or have not known so I would be a little leary. Sorry to a bit of a grump about it, but your desire to be ethical matches mine....
Need some more time to think it over- my kids are being animals right now and I not in an especially benevolent mood to say the least.
So, I'll give my support, and some thoughts later during the rest of the weekend probably.
I think you have a great idea there. Fine details can always be worked out, but your basic concept is terrific.
Sigh. I hate to be a naysayer, as the idea sounds great in principle, but I just don't see it flying, for many reasons. First, this is such a small community, that I just don't see enough of an available pool of contributors, especially when so many people are being squeezed by the weak economy. I had toyed with the idea of suggesting a "mod development fund" which, as the name implies, would raise cash for the development of things like ITB's, forced induction kits, etc. But the more I kicked the numbers around in my head, the more I realized it wasn't practical.
And then there's the ethical question Biotechee raised. No matter what kinds of safeguards we'd put in, something like this just begs fraud and abuse, despite the fact that 99% of those who frequent this forum are upstanding individuals.
And then there's just the "no way this could ever happen to me" mentality that many of us have, however delusional this belief may be. I just think that most of us believe, rightly or wrongly, that we maintain our cars so meticulously that the likelihood of a catastrophic failure is remote. I'm not saying this is right, but it is the way many of us (particularly those of us of the male persuasion) think. Just my 2 cents...
Interesting idea, however what comes to mind is the fact that we have quite a diverse collection of members. And, the impression I have gotten is there are those that work on their cars often, (some to the point of over maintenance) and others that may drive until something fails. With that said, the support would tend to favor those that are less mechanically involved with their cars. I'm not in any way knocking those that don't work on their cars, I'm just playing devils avocate.
I for one work on my car several times a month just as a hobby. The car may be fine, but I may make an adjustment or check the fluids etc. etc.
As an alternative or supplemental idea, perhaps create a support database with contact information. If a member is travelling across a state or the country and were to breakdown, they could call a member in the area that could provide local information etc. Just a thought...
Understood. I also thought that we might suddenly have 1,000 members join the forum and then post their sob story along with a fake invoice from a shady mechanic that is crooked enough to make up something and split the profits with whomever is warped enough to do something like that... But I think we can put enough control and checks and balances measures in place to detect and prevent, or at least reduce the possibility of that happenning to a very, very low chance of that slipping by..
And you know what , my thought after realizing , unfortunately on a personal level, that these things do happen to us ( I also lived with " it'll never happen to me" syndrome ) was this : yeah, maybe one out of the ten times l will send in $ "X" that money might be wasted on a loser or on someone's scheme, but if the other nine times I know I'm going to make a difference by a contribution along with others on this forum to ease the financial pain and burden ( as small or as large that "relief" may be ) of one of our friends, our 968 compadres that just had the misfortune of this happen to them, it's worth it !
I also understand that some are obsessive about maintenance while others far more relaxed..and we have members on every level in between those two points, but I doubt anyone will neglect their cars on the faint hope they're going to end up with a few dollars or may be even a lot of dollars from this support group. I'd like to think 99% of us take whatever measures we deem reasonable and follow common wisdom in protecting our cars as much as possible. But when belts fail at 20k miles ( in a few cases ) or when a pinion bearing problem appears, or when some other idiotically designed component fails and destroys your engine in the process with little or no fault of your own, how do we even start to judge or question how religiously anyone maintained their cars and then decide whether to send in a contribution or not ? Just asking.. I don't know the answer to that [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img]
Good discussion points, all...
In theory it's a good idea. A lot of details
have to be worked out. When my pinion
bearing failed it was a big financial hit.
Any amount would have been appreciated.
One problem lies in who is actually financialy
deserving of a contribution. Would you
contribute money to someone who doesn't
actually need it?
<!--quoteo(post=72495:date=May 25 2009, 12:35 AM:name=tom968)-->QUOTE (tom968 @ May 25 2009, 12:35 AM)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->One problem lies in who is actually financialy
deserving of a contribution. Would you
contribute money to someone who doesn't
actually need it?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I really have no qualms spending $ 50 to help a forum member that may face a huge bill as a result of these catastrophic failures, even if that individual is relatively wealthy.. I know there are some among us that probably don't "need" the money, but I doubt the relief would not be welcomed with as much appreciation as anyone else in a tighter financial situation would Also, I'd like to think that person will be the first to contribute when someone else's 968 is plagued by these mechanical disasters. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm far from being " Mr. Charity " - I would not give a dime to someone whose Honda broke down .. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] unless they were a member of my family.. It's purely a 968 thing with me, and a kinship I feel to everyone I've met so far in person or "virtually" on this site and on the old .net for that matter. So to this day I still think the idea I brought up way back when on that forum is something worthwhile doing for our small community..
Sure, there are things that have to be worked out, and yes, once in a while we may send in money to someone who uses the 968 simply for its convenient hatchback feature just to pick up lumber and manure at Home Depot , while their Ferrari and Bentley are being detailed [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img] but I'd bet 99% of the time we would help out and provide a very welcomed surprise ( to say the least.. ) to someone who does need the relief.
And again, we're not talking about everyday mechanical problems, regardless of how expensive they are to fix - we're talking about rare " freak" ocurrences that end up in sudden multiple thousands of dollars worth of engine or power train rebuilds from causes ( those are one of the items I wish people would post, recommend parameters and some common sense rules ) that are for the most part unexpected major failures, and not due to regular wear and tear or by reason of complete neglect of the owner.. No one deserves those.
I support this idea. I agree with the notion that it is a great idea in theory that would need all the details ironed out.
968forums is a club more then anything else. I am a proud member. At the end of the day, we are all brought together by one common interest. The sight has been a big help for me, the resources gained by being here and all the people i've met are awesome.
I have zero issues making any contributions to help fellow 968 owners. I have met a lot of people because of this forum, and everyone is awesome to say the least. If i were to contribute money to anyone, they would have to be an active member at the very least.
<!--quoteo(post=72513:date=May 25 2009, 09:33 AM:name=Fox944)-->QUOTE (Fox944 @ May 25 2009, 09:33 AM)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I support this idea. I agree with the notion that it is a great idea in theory that would need all the details ironed out.
968forums is a club more then anything else. I am a proud member. At the end of the day, we are all brought together by one common interest. The sight has been a big help for me, the resources gained by being here and all the people i've met are awesome.
I have zero issues making any contributions to help fellow 968 owners. I have met a lot of people because of this forum, and everyone is awesome to say the least. If i were to contribute money to anyone, they would have to be an active member at the very least.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 on that. I'd be more than willing to contribute. For all the tips and guidance I have received over the period I've been posting, any monies ponied up to support this would be payback. Count me in.
Ha-RUMPH! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
I am all for this. I agree whole-heartedly that there are checks and balances that need to be in place, and some sort of sub-committee that would be in place to decide the validity and deservedness - yeah, I just made that word up - of each case. I'm not wealthy by any means, but I'd contribute to the fund in a heartbeat. I'd look at it as a small insurance policy. Or the Give a Penny/Take a Penny cup. Only there are more pennies. And stricter guidelines. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
I really could have used this support line a couple months ago. $6900. Actually had to tap into a very similar support line the Army has - AER (Army Emergency Relief). They do basically what this thread talks about. People can contribute to the Fund (I usually donate about $120-240 per year), and then there is a process to go through to get financial help when needed. Depending on your Take-home Pay and the financial emergency you've come into (beit auto repairs, death in the family, home repairs, etc.) they can award either interest-free loans or grants or a combination of both. I didn't get the whole bill covered - only about 1/3 of it actually. But it was better than footing the whole thing. It really saved us.
So, yeah. With the proper regulations - I'm all for it.
And about the state-by-state-who-lives-in-the-area?-support-group thing... working on it. How 'bout it Flash? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
Glad to see that we're starting to pick up some steam on this initiative [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] I'll be in back to back meetings followed by receptions and dinners, etc. practically every day for the next two weeks, so not sure how much time I'll have to dedicate to this thread, but please do keep the ideas coming - I need all the help I can get with what criteria and parameters, rules we should follow ; what qualifies as a catastrophic loss, who should qualify for it, what controls should be in place, what process, etc.. It's probably more simple than it sounds since any and all contributions are entirely on a voluntary baisis, there is no fund to set up, no expectations relative to any given amount of relief one may get, no judging anyone based on who contributes or doesn't and to whom.. since all this ( IMO ) should be kept anonymous, but we still need to have some fundamantal principles set up and a process via which this can happen with as few complications as possible.
I was just thinking last night about the possibility of a member ending up with an unexpected $ 3,000 repair cost
and three hundred members feel in the mood to contribute $ 20 each that day... that member ends up with
$ 6,000 ! Since they are all direct contributions ( say, to the car owners' PayPal account ) how do we know to stop at $ 3,000 ? Ok, clearly I have waaaay too much faith in human nature of giving ( even for this generous bunch that we are [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] ) so the probability of that happening is about as likely as me becoming the next Pope .. more like, twenty members contributing $ 50 each and the person is fortunate enough to shave $ 1k off of that bill, but you know what I'm saying.. little things like that to which one has to give some thought and discuss before putting this into action.
maybe starting a fund where ppl contribute some cash every once in a while...say...20 bucks every 3 months. If a disaster occurs to anyone who has contributed and needs help, the fund is there to help him. Perhaps paying for 33% of the total tab and not 100%.
i.e. someone is in need of a $3000 repair, the fund contributes $1000. The disaster relief Account itself may have $6000 in it, but that is besides the point.
This is just a personal observation...are you f#$%ing kidding me?
This is a car that for most of us is a weekend cruiser or part time plaything, if it breaks fix it or sell it. I am all for altruism, and if any member here had a devastating personal lose, (Cancer, needed a transplant, desperately ill child) I would be the first one to reach into my pocket. I'm having a little trouble feeling complelled to help you if you can't afford to fix your PORSCHE.
That said, I hope you will all join me in supporting my favorite charity...
Jay
Hate to say it but I'm with Jay.
Not a bad idea.
Sending parts needed for repairs may work here as well. Or lending time in handling projects that are not so major, as the Flash tech days go. If someone damages or is in need of a part, which a fellow forum member has an extra one of, I bet most would have no problem giving it away or only asking for a small donation as compensation.
<!--quoteo(post=72572:date=May 26 2009, 12:27 PM:name=94SilverCab)-->QUOTE (94SilverCab @ May 26 2009, 12:27 PM)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That said, I hope you will all join me in supporting my favorite charity...
Jay<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG, How did I miss that?
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
I think that once all the parameters such as who, when and how much are considered -- and combine that with the fact that these are very rare automobiles not intended for the masses -- the "emergency" fund idea becomes too difficult to manage and IMO justify.
If you have a big loss and would like assistance, you could put your pay pal account info in the thread and if people want to donate they can.
Personally, I'm going to continue to put my money toward a cure for cancer and helping the destitute before I help someone with their Porsche bill. We all knew in purchasing a Porsche that they can be very expensive to maintain -- let alone fix -- once things go awry.
There are second party "warranties" for sale although I've heard varying degrees of satisfaction with them. I personally think that warranties are not worth the money but they do offer insurance for catastrophe. That is an option for those concerned about having to sink a lot of money into their 968.
I feel sorry that this happened to Dan and anyone else but we're all pretty well off compared to most. If not, as Jay suggested, you have the option to sell and part out. Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth -- which isn't much!
i'm on both sides on the fence to be honest. I don't really mind helping a fellow 968 owner in time of need. With the economy the way it is, and people losing their job....i can see someone needing a hand. On the flip side, maybe its time to sell your Porsche if you are in such a situation.
Personally, i would contribute to such a fund....but would never ask for help myself. The 968 is my favorite car (of the cars i own), and if the day comes that i can no longer afford to maintain and modify it, i will start selling off my other toys first. Hopefully i wont need to ditch the 968 prior to brighter days coming my way.
second party warranties are helpful, if you get a good one - the one we have on the denali has paid for itself twice over already - hard to know which ones are good ones or not though
while i can certainly appreciated the idea that dan has, i don't see it as practical on a large scale, nor likely to happen on a small one - everyone has disasters - we all have to deal with them - a large part of owning an old car is realizing that they break down - factor in the rarity and marque, and you should plan to put aside a good fund every year - if you don't or can't you should not own the car - it's just the nature of the beast - i fully expect to blow things up on a regular basis - i don't think anybody is going to come running up with their checkbook though
it may be a nice "kumbaya" kind of thing to think about, but i think the likelihood of disaster is much higher than any assistance fund or program will have in success - i think we are better served by maintaining a good network and connecting with other owners
that being said, we are indeed working on a map - this will facilitate people being able to reach out for help when they need it