Thanks for taking the time to read gents! I have been living abroad and sold my polar silver 968 when I moved to switzerland about a year and a half ago <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> While I was there I drove a 968 Clubsport and all I can say is HOLY COW! I may have been biased as I was daily driving a 60 hp Peugeot and really missed my 968 but it felt worlds better than my car. Anyway now I'm in the market for another 968. But where the first one was a real garage queen that I kept stock now I am looking for something to occasionally track/autoX. I realize the cost of these mods would probably exceed the cost of the car itself but it would still be cheaper than the 25,000 euro's that the clubsport cost and the final product would probably be quite a vast improvement over the clubsport as well.
Weight loss
1. Lightweight Battery/ move battery to back -30
2. Spare removal/ tool removal- 40
3. Rear seat delete- 25
4. Recaro Pole Position seats- 65
5. Lexan Rear Hatch/ rear windows -50
6. RS Barn full lightweight exhaust/ headers- 45
7. Lightweight single mass flywheel/clutch- 12
8. Lightweight brakes -20 ($2000)
9. Electric window delete/ roll up windows- -6
10. Electric mirror removal- 6
11. Sunvisors, plastics, floor mats, rear wiper, windshield wiper fluids,owners manual etc.- 30
12. Fog light delete/ brake cooling vents- 6
13. Sun roof delete/weld- 20
14. Lightweight wheels/ tires- 10
15. Suede momo steering wheel/airbag removal- 5
16. Remove charcoal can- 3
17. Appbiz RS door skins with cloth pulls- 15
18. Power Steering delete- 12
Total weight loss goal 400 pounds
Original curb weight: 3086lbs
Exterior/ interior
Front splitter
968 Turbo RS style 2-rear wing
968 Turbo RS brake ducts
Welded in half cage/ harnesses
Power
RS Barn Airbox/ echaust/ custom chip
Goal: 400 pounds lost almost 15% weight reduction, 15% increase in power, large reduction in unsprung/ rotating mass (Brakes, wheels, flywheel) lowered center of gravity, (hatch, roof) higher redline/ much better midrange torque and smoother power band. (RSBarn chip) Basically I want a 968 clubsport thats been sent back to zuffenhausen and re clubsported if you get me.
My Big questions..
1. Is it possible to pull 400 pounds from a 968 without completely gutting it?
2. will the RS Barn exhaust, air box, chip give around 25-30 hp or did I somehow make up that number from wishful thinking?
3. Does anyone have any weight reduction items I missed or anything they would not recommend or would do differently?
4. What kind of suspension would you recommend for a street/track car (i don't mind hard but I'm also not a masochist)
5. Finally does the above sound like anyones car and if so how is it?!
Thanks! Look forward to hearing some input!
-Max
Some of those weight loss figures are inaccurate, for example the Recaros, brakes and rear seat delete. My CS seats weigh 27# each and stock seats were 50-52 so only about 45# savings not 65. You won't find brakes much lighter weight than the stock ones because they aren't very big to begin with. Lexan rear hatch might save 30 lbs over stock but it's a pain in the ass to make fit properly and as others have said, find one that doesn't get cloudy or scratch easily. #11 on your list is also way too generous, those all add up to maybe a couple of lbs and #6 will save 25-30 lbs not 45 IMO.
My riv blue 968 coupe is down to about 2885# and it's a night and day improvement in driving feel and performance compared to my stock m030 at 3050! I'm hoping to get the riv blue car down to 27xx or so with lightweight body panels, lexan hatch, LWFW and rear seat delete but anything less than that will be tough without gutting things.
You can ditch the AC, cruise control, engine trim, rear hatch motor [haha] both airbags and airbag dash for additional savings. I've found high quality aircraft alternators for weight savings that generate 75 amps...far less than factory 115 amps but I don't use my stereo or many other accessories anyway. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> I think 944 guys have found modern Nissan alternators that weigh half of the original.
For suspension, KW V3 is the gold standard for plug and play spring/DA shock combo and includes welded fittings for brake ducts, ABS sensor and wiring, etc etc. Can't say the same about Moton Clubsports even though they're another step up performance-wise...
Put a supercharger in and don't worry quite as much with the weight. Was #2 the spare tire? No roll bar or cage of any type? Harness belts? I put bilsteins and coil overs in and it's a new car. Flash will disagree but check all options then decide. Careful with how much you drop it or buy a racing jack! Lol
First of all, how do you plan to use the car - on the street, or primarily on the track?
I'm afraid I have to agree with PorscheG96 that most of your weight loss estimates are optimistic. A few things I'd add:
Be careful with the lightweight battery. Remember that the fans on these cars run for several minutes after turning off the engine, and they draw 12 amps, so they drain a small battery fast. I have a 12-lb small lead acid battery in mine, and on a warm day, I can get at most six starts out of it after fully charging the battery. You have to really plan your trips if you have one of these. A lithium ion battery might be your best bet - they're still expensive, but they're starting to come down in price. And personally, I don't think it's worth the trouble of moving it to the back, especially since the extra cabling negates a lot of your weight loss.
I'd also think carefully about the power steering delete. Steering at low speeds is really heavy. Ask me how I know...
Lightweight wheels and tires are a major challenge. Porsche's "unique" 5x130 mm bolt pattern makes lightweight wheels very hard to find, as you're locked out of many of the really good quality, lightweight wheels that are available for "normal" cars. But let us know if you find something - I've been searching for months.
A few things I've done that aren't on your list:
- Fixed headlight conversion. A TON of work, but it saves about 35 lb.
- Since I hardly drive the car on the street, I've removed both the front and rear bumper bars. This meant fabricating a custom tow hook, which was also a ton of work, and attaching the rear bumperettes to the plastic bumper cover, but altogether, this saves over 25 lb.
- Fiberglass hood. They're hard to find, but I lucked into a used one that actually fits reasonably well. I removed the hood struts, but retained the hinges and latches, so the total weight loss was only about 10 lb. I'd love to go one step further and get a carbon fiber skin without the reinforcement, and hold it down with hood pins at each corner, and eliminate the hinges and latches.
- There's some discussion in another thread about replacing the electric hatch mechanism with a pull cable. Definitely on my list. Probably only a couple pounds savings, though.
- If you think you can live without AC, Lindsey Racing has a nice AC delete kit, which will probably save at least 30 lb. It moves the alternator down to where the AC compressor currently sits, so you lower the car's center of gravity a bit, too. They also sell a 50 amp Bosch alternator that's several pounds lighter than the stock one. That's probably not practical for a street car, though.
So to answer your question, I'm afraid that it's going to be very difficult (and expensive!) to get to your weight loss goal of 400 lb without drastically altering the character of your car. But any weight savings you can achieve is good, so I have to disagree with my friend Rap about this. Weight savings helps everywhere - more power only helps in the straights (OK, also coming out of the corners). I've taken a little over 200 lb out of mine, and I have to say, it feels like a rocket coming out of the turns on the track compared to before. Take as much weight out of it as you can, THEN add a super charger, lol. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
yeah - i tried this. i was able to pull out about 240lbs from the blu cab (keep in mind that 42# of that was the boat anchor in the trunk), and probably could have pulled another 75 or so, but that's it. short of stripping the chassis down to bare metal, it is virtually impossible to get these cars down below 2800# in any form of streetable trim
side note: G96 - a complete body panel change, including all glass to lexan, will only drop about 80#. the body panels are not very heavy.
G96 Your Riviera blue 968 is a dime! Thank you so much for all the great information I figured I was a bit optomistic but its nice to know exactly where. Also I am a bit confused by where all the 968's weight came from. My dad has a 924S that we track often and its pretty gutted I think he has it down to about 2650. Where did the extra 400 or so pounds come from on the 968? I know they have a larger engine and some luxuries but its the same wheelbase, size, hatch, transaxle etc. Is there something I am missing?
Best- Max
[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1403690965' post='158967']
Put a supercharger in and don't worry quite as much with the weight. Was #2 the spare tire? No roll bar or cage of any type? Harness belts? I put bilsteins and coil overs in and it's a new car. Flash will disagree but check all options then decide. Careful with how much you drop it or buy a racing jack! Lol
[/quote]
Rap,
Imagine yourself explaining this to Colin Chapmin he would have had a fit! Haha you sound exactly like my friend mason who has a supercharched mustang GT, every time we talk cars I have some expensive weight reduction in mind and he just sits there uncomprehending and asks "why don't you just supercharge it?" For me its all about lightness but thank you for your input as well. I always liked the look of those NACA ducts on the 968 turbo so maybe more POWAA would end up in there when I finished the diet!
-Max
Cloud968,
Primarily it would be a street car but primarily I drive like I'm on the track all the time (just kidding) In all honesty I am a young chap who is not at all in need of a soft and supple ride so long as its not knocking my fillings out. I like your idea about the fixed headlight conversion. I mean I would miss my pop up headlamps but I could deal with it for 35 pounds off the nose. Also I had no idea about the lightweight alternator that sounds excellent! The one thing Im not sure I could get rid of is the A/C simply because where I live the summers are very hot and I think I may be going for a black 968 as I think they look the absolute business.
Im a little bit bummed that the parts don't add up to a nice round 400 but I have seen those Miata guys shave off hundreds of pounds off their little cars and if they can do it I won't be so easily discouraged! Thanks for all the fantastic information this forum is just brilliant and you lads know your 968's! I will definitely be keeping you up to date when I get the car. Thanks again.
-Max
[quote name='MWG968@optimum.net' timestamp='1403707004' post='158975']
G96 Your Riviera blue 968 is a dime! Thank you so much for all the great information I figured I was a bit optomistic but its nice to know exactly where. Also I am a bit confused by where all the 968's weight came from. My dad has a 924S that we track often and its pretty gutted I think he has it down to about 2650. Where did the extra 400 or so pounds come from on the 968? I know they have a larger engine and some luxuries but its the same wheelbase, size, hatch, transaxle etc. Is there something I am missing?
Best- Max
[/quote]
I've thought a lot about this as well. The best answer I've come up with is that the 968 actually added quite a number of features over the 944, and certainly the 924, over the years, and it all adds up, Examples include:
- Power sunroof, vs. manual
- 6-speed transaxle
- Variocam mechanism
- Larger displacement engine
- Cruise control
- Fancier stereo (more speakers, etc.)
- Larger wheels and tires
- Larger brakes
- Power seats (these weigh a ton)
Plus probably a bunch of other things.
I didn't mean to be a smart ass. I am also soon to engage in a wait loss move. However, the sc allows you to enjoy it now on the track. Weight loss for the street in my mind is counterintuitive. Now Cloud, having driven two different 968's, I will use WGI as my example, there is a great difference with and without a sc on the track. I'm sure pulling out more weight would make more of a difference. Running just enough gas in your tank for a session is another way to lose weight. I haven't quite figured this out yet because my gauge moves so much that I'd rather be safe. It is whatever one feels like doing of course.
as cloud has said, the increase in weight comes in a lot of areas. the engine is quite a bit heavier, as is the transaxle.
a fully stripped out and dipped 968 race car comes in at almost 2700#.
i am all for weight loss, and probably pulled out more than anybody else in a street car (though G96 is on a mission to surpass that). that being said, you can easily get to a point where the car stops being good at what it was designed for. it's a GT. it's designed for road trips. once you strip out things like insulation and creature comforts, you turn the car into something that there are just better cars for. i went that route myself. in the end, i found the car lost a lot of what it was about, and started adding creature comforts.
[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1403708875' post='158978']
I've thought a lot about this as well. The best answer I've come up with is that the 968 actually added quite a number of features over the 944, and certainly the 924, over the years, and it all adds up, Examples include:
- Power sunroof, vs. manual
- 6-speed transaxle
- Variocam mechanism
- Larger displacement engine
- Cruise control
- Fancier stereo (more speakers, etc.)
- Larger wheels and tires
- Larger brakes
- Power seats (these weigh a ton)
Plus probably a bunch of other things.
[/quote]
Same here! Adding to your list...
ABS
Airbags
AC
<acronym title='Limited Slip Differential'>LSD</acronym>
Power steering
Chassis re-enforcements
More sound deadening and glue
Massive intake manifold
Larger radiator
Bigger sway bars
<acronym title='dual mass flywheel'>DMF</acronym>!
Gigantic crankshaft
An extra camshaft
Beefier rear axles
Multiple piece torque tube
I knew I'd left off a few things, but I see I underestimated my degree of omission! I guess it isn't surprising that 968's weigh so much more than previous incarnations of this design. But most of the items on G96's list would be very difficult to remove.
Flash is correct that the 968 was really designed to be a well-rounded, sporty GT car, not a lightweight sports car. It does a very good job of achieving this purpose. It's hard to take more than about 200 lbs out of one without really compromising its streetability. To MWG968, I'd respectfully suggest that if you're looking for a no-frills lightweight sports car that's still streetable, you might want to consider some other cars. First on my list would be a Lotus Elise. These weigh in at about 2000 lbs, with HVAC, and can be had for the low 20's, maybe even the high teens, particularly ones with "salvage titles", which is common for that car because it doesn't have separate bumper covers - the bumpers are integrated into the body, so many of them were written off as total losses even with relative to no actual structural damage.
Other options, all of which weigh about 2700 - 2800 lb, are the Mazda RX7 twin turbo, the Toyota MR2 turbo, and the Honda S2000. Just something to think about.
[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1403709022' post='158979']
I didn't mean to be a smart ass. I am also soon to engage in a wait loss move. However, the sc allows you to enjoy it now on the track. Weight loss for the street in my mind is counterintuitive. Now Cloud, having driven two different 968's, I will use WGI as my example, there is a great difference with and without a sc on the track. I'm sure pulling out more weight would make more of a difference. Running just enough gas in your tank for a session is another way to lose weight. I haven't quite figured this out yet because my gauge moves so much that I'd rather be safe. It is whatever one feels like doing of course.
[/quote]
Rap,
I didn't take the comment that way sorry if I came off the wrong way! I am in complete agreement with you that FI power is the cheapest and most bang for your buck mod possible. I think there genuinely may be something wrong with me as I am obsessed with weight reduction. At auto crosses I take out the change in my ashtray and joke around with my friends saying my car is the 'superleggera' model. Im certain a supercharged 968 would be an absolute riot though!
best, Max
[quote name='flash' timestamp='1403709758' post='158981']
as cloud has said, the increase in weight comes in a lot of areas. the engine is quite a bit heavier, as is the transaxle.
a fully stripped out and dipped 968 race car comes in at almost 2700#.
i am all for weight loss, and probably pulled out more than anybody else in a street car (though G96 is on a mission to surpass that). that being said, you can easily get to a point where the car stops being good at what it was designed for. it's a GT. it's designed for road trips. once you strip out things like insulation and creature comforts, you turn the car into something that there are just better cars for. i went that route myself. in the end, i found the car lost a lot of what it was about, and started adding creature comforts.
[/quote]
Thanks for this info I really appreciate it. I think it was the knowledge that 944's were 2700 pounds that made me think that was (at least) an attainable goal for a 968. I had no clue that a filly stripped race car came in at around 2700 lbs. I completely understand where your coming from with taking too much out of it (been there done that) I guess the other thing that will get me is the cost as once its all said and done I'm not sure I wouldn't finish the car and than drive a 987.1 Cayman S and regret it all. I just love the 968's looks and how it drives what a dilemma!
if i were still into autocross (been there done that - moved on, but whatever floats your boat), and i wanted to do it with a production car, i sure wouldn't be slagging around a 968. i'd be running something around 1300#, like an elva, a midget, a super 7, or something like that. i don't even like tracking the 968, because it's too large and heavy. sure, dropping weight on the car makes it faster and more responsive, but it can certainly be like tilting at windmills.
the best place to lose weight is in unsprung mass. one of the biggest mistakes autocross guys make is in the suspension setup. they add big heavy shocks, springs, and swaybars, all of which work against making an autocross car fast anyway.
then they add a bunch of negative camber, which actually costs them grip, due to raising the temps of the outside tire, and losing contact on the inside tire.
then they put on tires and wheels that are too large and too heavy. dropping rotating mass is 4 times as effective as static mass.
happens all the time. i used to have a ball watching them try to figure out why our cars were so much faster.
Cloud and G96,
Thanks for the parts list I had no idea the amount of parts that were different or added! Looking at that I am almost surprised the weight difference is not greater. Also I realize that what I am trying to do is take a GT car and turn it into a lightweight sports car and that is definitely counterintuitive. I pretty much stalk the lotus talk cars for sale forum but I have to say I think getting into an elise in the teens is difficult. Low 20's for a salvage car seems to be the going rate and to be honest I just love the look of the exige so much that I think I would have to go for one of those and that is out of my price range. As far as the other cars on your list I am definitely looking for a coupe and I definitely prefer NA power. Im sorry to be so difficult but thanks a lot for your recommendations! Choosing a car is really torture from one idea to the next and whenever I think I decide (968 Clubsport+) I usually learn something or many things that sort of break it for me. I love car shopping but I also hate it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
Flash,
A caterham is high on my list of cars that absolutely need to be in my garage but at the moment I am in Uni and don't have a garage. This is where the pain of car shopping comes in you have to get a car that can do everything! When you like going on the track and also do a lot of scuba diving that seriously limits your car choices. If I had the room I would have a defender/old ex swiss military G wagon for my surfboards, fishing, diving gear, a super 7 or exige for the track and a 968 or cayman for the street but sadly I have to try and combine this things into one car (In fact I think that would look like a scion hamster car haha) I have also looked into a 987.1 Cayman but I am worried about the IMS. I really appreciate your quick replies and in depth answers its cool to see how dedicated you are to these brilliant cars and this forum!
best, Max
lo - no worries. i faced exactly the same dilemma when i was first looking at the 968. i wanted a front engine, rear drive, manual trans, 2 seat ragtop with power steering, AC and the ability to carry 2 sets of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife, all while being able to take it to the track on occasion. unfortunately i have been spoiled by having driven some formula stuff, and now any production based car just seems too big and heavy to me. i am not the compromising sort, so for me, i just wasn't happy. i'd rather not be frustrated, so i just don't go to the track anymore, and autocross bores me (again having been spoiled). for others, it's a riot. no right or wrong answer there.
most people have to make the decisions and compromises that best suit their desires and situations. have fun. that's really all that matters.
This inspired me a little. How much does the cruise control weigh and how do I take it off? I Have used it once just to see if it works when I got the car back in January.
I lost about 36kg from changing the stock power seats to CS seats. And lost 10,6kg by taking out the rear seat backs. I'm thinking about getting a CF hood just to get a slight rear weight bias. I'm exactly in the same boat as you, MWG. I'm 20 so no need for a really comfortable car. Although I'm keeping a decent sound system and the AC. The AC needs a fill up right now and I REALLY miss having cold blowing air in the car.